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    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #121

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by De Maria View Post
    Since Scripture says that death is the wage of sin, we have also the evidence that Enoch and Elijah never physically died. They were carried into heaven.
    Enoch and Elijah lived sinless lives?
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    #122

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Some humans have lived sinless lives?
    Jesus was human, and he was without sin. Mary was human, and Luther believed she was without sin.
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    #123

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    ....so why Mary too?
    We believe it is fitting that God should take on Immaculate flesh and reside within an Immaculate womb.

    Logically, also, if Mary had sinned, then she would have been under Satan's dominion. And the child in her womb would have been under Satan's dominion also, because she to whom He was subject would have been subject to Satan.

    Capiche?
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    #124

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Enoch and Elijah lived sinless lives?
    Did they die?
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    #125

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by De Maria View Post
    We believe it is fitting that God should take on Immaculate flesh and reside within an Immaculate womb.

    Logically, also, if Mary had sinned, then she would have been under Satan's dominion. And the child in her womb would have been under Satan's dominion also, because she to whom He was subject would have been subject to Satan.

    Capiche?
    No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.
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    #126

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.
    God is omnipotent. Nothing can diminish God's power.
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    #127

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Akoue View Post
    God is omnipotent. Nothing can diminish God's power.
    Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.
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    #128

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.
    And then he shouldn't have to die on a cross in order to redeem a sinful humanity.
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    #129

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.
    How so?
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    #130

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.
    Perhaps. But we don't make the call. He does. This is how He chose to do it.
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    #131

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by De Maria View Post
    Perhaps. But we don't make the call. He does. This is how He chose to do it.
    I don't agree. Your church makes that call.
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    #132

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I don't agree. Your church makes that call.
    And yours, apparently. Read Luther, "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God".
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    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #133

    Jan 12, 2009, 06:56 PM
    De Maria,
    Well said.
    Well done.
    Those who went to hell paved their way there by their thoughts and actions.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
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    #134

    Jan 12, 2009, 07:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I don't agree. Your church makes that call.
    If that is true, She was given that power by God Himself:
    Matthew 16:19
    And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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    #135

    Jan 12, 2009, 07:20 PM
    De Maria,
    Yes that is true.
    Fred
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    #136

    Jan 12, 2009, 07:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by De Maria View Post
    If that is true, She was given that power by God Himself:
    Matthew 16:19
    And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    That verse has nothing to do with Mary's being immaculate. Please explain the connection.
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    #137

    Jan 12, 2009, 07:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Akoue View Post
    And yours, apparently. Read Luther, "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God".
    The Lutheran Church does not go along with every jot and tittle written by Luther. From catholicculture.org -- "Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it."
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    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #138

    Jan 12, 2009, 07:32 PM
    Wondergirl.
    I believe De Maria was commenting on your statement that The Church made the call and not on Mary.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
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    #139

    Jan 12, 2009, 07:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    The Lutheran Church does not go along with every jot and tittle written by Luther. From catholicculture.org -- "Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it."
    Okay. But it certainly shows that it's not just "your" Church (as you said to De Maria), very disapprovingly. Do you feel Luther was mistaken to favor the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? If so, why?
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    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #140

    Jan 12, 2009, 07:48 PM
    Wondergirl,
    I was a Lutheran for over 30 years.
    I know what you mean.
    Have you read the book "There We Stood, Here We Stand" by Timothy Drake?
    I highly recommend it to all Lutherans and Catholics.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred

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