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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:11 PM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
Since Scripture says that death is the wage of sin, we have also the evidence that Enoch and Elijah never physically died. They were carried into heaven.
Enoch and Elijah lived sinless lives?
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:12 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Some humans have lived sinless lives?
Jesus was human, and he was without sin. Mary was human, and Luther believed she was without sin.
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:14 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
....so why Mary too?
We believe it is fitting that God should take on Immaculate flesh and reside within an Immaculate womb.
Logically, also, if Mary had sinned, then she would have been under Satan's dominion. And the child in her womb would have been under Satan's dominion also, because she to whom He was subject would have been subject to Satan.
Capiche?
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:15 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Enoch and Elijah lived sinless lives?
Did they die?
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:17 PM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
We believe it is fitting that God should take on Immaculate flesh and reside within an Immaculate womb.
Logically, also, if Mary had sinned, then she would have been under Satan's dominion. And the child in her womb would have been under Satan's dominion also, because she to whom He was subject would have been subject to Satan.
Capiche?
No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:30 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.
God is omnipotent. Nothing can diminish God's power.
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:36 PM
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 Originally Posted by Akoue
God is omnipotent. Nothing can diminish God's power.
Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:39 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.
And then he shouldn't have to die on a cross in order to redeem a sinful humanity.
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:39 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.
How so?
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:40 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.
Perhaps. But we don't make the call. He does. This is how He chose to do it.
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:51 PM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
Perhaps. But we don't make the call. He does. This is how He chose to do it.
I don't agree. Your church makes that call.
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:55 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don't agree. Your church makes that call.
And yours, apparently. Read Luther, "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God".
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 06:56 PM
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De Maria,
Well said.
Well done.
Those who went to hell paved their way there by their thoughts and actions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 07:02 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don't agree. Your church makes that call.
If that is true, She was given that power by God Himself:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 07:20 PM
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De Maria,
Yes that is true.
Fred
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jan 12, 2009, 07:24 PM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
If that is true, She was given that power by God Himself:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
That verse has nothing to do with Mary's being immaculate. Please explain the connection.
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jan 12, 2009, 07:31 PM
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 Originally Posted by Akoue
And yours, apparently. Read Luther, "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God".
The Lutheran Church does not go along with every jot and tittle written by Luther. From catholicculture.org -- "Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it."
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 07:32 PM
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Wondergirl.
I believe De Maria was commenting on your statement that The Church made the call and not on Mary.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 07:34 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The Lutheran Church does not go along with every jot and tittle written by Luther. From catholicculture.org -- "Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it."
Okay. But it certainly shows that it's not just "your" Church (as you said to De Maria), very disapprovingly. Do you feel Luther was mistaken to favor the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? If so, why?
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Ultra Member
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Jan 12, 2009, 07:48 PM
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Wondergirl,
I was a Lutheran for over 30 years.
I know what you mean.
Have you read the book "There We Stood, Here We Stand" by Timothy Drake?
I highly recommend it to all Lutherans and Catholics.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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