[Wondergirl]

Since Scripture says that death is the wage of sin, we have also the evidence that Enoch and Elijah never physically died. They were carried into heaven.

Enoch and Elijah lived sinless lives?

[Akoue]

Some humans have lived sinless lives?

Jesus was human, and he was without sin. Mary was human, and Luther believed she was without sin.

[De Maria]

....so why Mary too?

We believe it is fitting that God should take on Immaculate flesh and reside within an Immaculate womb.

Logically, also, if Mary had sinned, then she would have been under Satan's dominion. And the child in her womb would have been under Satan's dominion also, because she to whom He was subject would have been subject to Satan.

Capiche?

[De Maria]

Enoch and Elijah lived sinless lives?

Did they die?

[Wondergirl]

We believe it is fitting that God should take on Immaculate flesh and reside within an Immaculate womb.

Logically, also, if Mary had sinned, then she would have been under Satan's dominion. And the child in her womb would have been under Satan's dominion also, because she to whom He was subject would have been subject to Satan.

Capiche?

No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.

[Akoue]

No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.

God is omnipotent. Nothing can diminish God's power.

[Wondergirl]

God is omnipotent. Nothing can diminish God's power.

Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.

[Akoue]

Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.

And then he shouldn't have to die on a cross in order to redeem a sinful humanity.

[De Maria]

No. God's power then gets diminished forthwith.

How so?

[De Maria]

Then He shouldn't have to make Mary sinless in order to produce a sinless Jesus.

Perhaps. But we don't make the call. He does. This is how He chose to do it.

[Wondergirl]

Perhaps. But we don't make the call. He does. This is how He chose to do it.

I don't agree. Your church makes that call.

[Akoue]

I don't agree. Your church makes that call.

And yours, apparently. Read Luther, "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God".

[arcura]

De Maria,
Well said.
Well done.
Those who went to hell paved their way there by their thoughts and actions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

I don't agree. Your church makes that call.

If that is true, She was given that power by God Himself:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[arcura]

De Maria,
Yes that is true.
Fred

[Wondergirl]

If that is true, She was given that power by God Himself:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

That verse has nothing to do with Mary's being immaculate. Please explain the connection.

[Wondergirl]

And yours, apparently. Read Luther, "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God".

The Lutheran Church does not go along with every jot and tittle written by Luther. From catholicculture.org -- "Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it."

[arcura]

Wondergirl.
I believe De Maria was commenting on your statement that The Church made the call and not on Mary.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Akoue]

The Lutheran Church does not go along with every jot and tittle written by Luther. From catholicculture.org -- "Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it."

Okay. But it certainly shows that it's not just "your" Church (as you said to De Maria), very disapprovingly. Do you feel Luther was mistaken to favor the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? If so, why?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I was a Lutheran for over 30 years.
I know what you mean.
Have you read the book "There We Stood, Here We Stand" by Timothy Drake?
I highly recommend it to all Lutherans and Catholics.
Peace and kindness,
Fred