[Wondergirl]

Wow, all that after a whole fifteen minutes!

Let me see. I was faulted for not looking it up, and, when I did, I was faulted for not reading enough. I guess I need a Catholic in my life after all to personally explain it to me.

[Athos]

Lemme see. I was faulted for not looking it up, and, when I did, I was faulted for not reading enough. I guess I need a Catholic in my life after all to personally explain it to me.

I'm sorry this is turning into an argument. I thought I was providing a good explanation, but I see now I didn't explain enough; rather I made a claim about Catholic belief. That claim happens to be correct but, as Akoue said, it's not easy to put all the history into a post here.

Some Catholics have a special devotion to Mary, but even these NEVER say she is a goddess. Does she APPEAR to be a goddess, or at least a demi-goddess, to those outside of Catholicism? Frankly, sometimes yes. But the truth of the matter is that, in fact and belief, she is NOT. I would think the testimony of Catholics themselves would be enough to put the matter to rest. Or a genuine attempt to research the issue to find the official explanations of these things.

When, in the face of denial and/or research, non-Catholics continue to insist that Catholics worship Mary, I cannot help but think an agenda is at work here - an agenda to disparage Catholic belief. Although relegated these days pretty much to the fundamentalist wing of Protestantism, it's still out there - a hangover from the Reformation.

[JoeT777]

I'm sorry this is turning into an argument. I thought I was providing a good explanation, but I see now I didn't explain enough; rather I made a claim about Catholic belief. That claim happens to be correct but, as Akoue said, it's not easy to put all the history into a post here.

Some Catholics have a special devotion to Mary, but even these NEVER say she is a goddess. Does she APPEAR to be a goddess, or at least a demi-goddess, to those outside of Catholicism? Frankly, sometimes yes. But the truth of the matter is that, in fact and belief, she is NOT. I would think the testimony of Catholics themselves would be enough to put the matter to rest. Or a genuine attempt to research the issue to find the official explanations of these things.

When, in the face of denial and/or research, non-Catholics continue to insist that Catholics worship Mary, I cannot help but think an agenda is at work here - an agenda to disparage Catholic belief. Although relegated these days pretty much to the fundamentalist wing of Protestantism, it's still out there - a hangover from the Reformation.

It's not your explanation Athos; WonderGirl has heard this more than once before – from me. That’s why she’s swinging so hard. Once before, I think she said, a virgin birth is believable, but it’s beyond God’s capacity for Mary to have an immaculate birth.

WonderGirl, did I get that right?

JoeT

[arcura]

Athos and Joe,
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

[Wondergirl]

a hangover from the Reformation.

Luther liked Mary A LOT!

[Akoue]

Luther liked Mary A LOT!

He even praised the veneration of Mary. But Luther was not the whole of the Reformation, as you know. The heart of the Reformation campaign against Catholic doctrine regarding Mary was in England (which had long had a very strong Marian tradition).

[arcura]

Akoue,
'Yes that is true,
The Protestants started a big attack on Mary that has lasted to this day.
I wonder how her son liked that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

It's not your explanation Athos; WonderGirl has heard this more than once before – from me. That's why she's swinging so hard. Once before, I think she said, a virgin birth is believable, but it's beyond God's capacity for Mary to have an immaculate birth.

WonderGirl, did I get that right?

JoeT

No, you didn't.

I have always believed Jesus' birth was pure and sinless, immaculate. I do not agree that Mary "had to be" immaculate. I had told you back then that that belief diminishes God's power. It always seemed to me that one of the major points of the Christmas story was that God honored a lowly, sinful, human virgin as the mother of His Son. What a wonderful example of God's desire to reach out to each of us in our own humanity!

And then I wondered why would the immaculateness stop with Mary. Why wasn't her mother immaculate--and her mother--and her mother... all the way back to Eve?

[arcura]

Wondergirl
Mary HAD to be immaculate so that original sin did not pass on the he Son in any way.
God's power made her to be that way so there was no diminishing of God's power except in the minds of some people.
With God ALL THINGS are possible.
And He chose to have His Son born perfect of Mary, a human being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

I understand all of your analogies. I get that!

Even though God may not take a person into His heaven where everythin must be perfect and pure He still loves the children who are not there. From arcura's post.

What does it matter if he still loves the people who are in hell? How does that help?

It explains that they rejected Him, not He rejecting them.

Imagine a person that has led an exemplary nearly flawless life. Did all the right things because that's just who he is. The only thing is, he is jewish. Now, because he does not believe Jesus is the messiah, he is going to hell. That's what you are saying to me.

Not according to Catholic doctrine. The Scripture says:
Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Keeping God's commandments is how we love God. And a Jew who keeps God's commandments will be shown mercy though he reject Jesus:
Matthew 12: 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

Answer the hard questions people and stop talking about just the pretty parts.

Ok.

Another example - you have given your child a choice to follow your rules or not. IF they do, then you welcome them home. (Heaven) If they don't, you will not allow them into your home.

Not exactly. Have you ever read about the Prodigal Son? If you study that parable, you will see that the son voluntarily the Father's house. And when he returned, he was welcomed.

In fact, not only can you not come home but I am going to send you to an awful place where you will be tortured and burned forever. Remember I still love you though.

That goes to the above. No one is sent to hell, They voluntarily go there:
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1037
7 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic
URL: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1037

Face it, this is the ugly truth you keep avoiding.

I don't think its an ugly truth. I'm amazed at the beauty and justice of it. God doesn't force our wills.

Would any of you present this ultimatum to your child? Unless you tell me no, I will just have to assume that you would.

It is you who don't want to face the hard truths. Its usually the child who gives the ultimatum. How many times do parents plead with a child to remain at home, but the child runs away and is lost to drugs, crime or worse?

I know people with children on drugs whom they can't permit back in their home because they will rob them blind or because they are afraid of them. I know people who have been run off because they've left their loved ones in crack houses.

So, face up to the ugly facts. When people turn and do evil, and they won't listen to reason, even though you love them, will you let them back in your home?

But God does let them back in, if they repent. But if they don't, then it is they who have turned from Him.

You don't have a problem with God doing it. Everything you describe is black or white. There is no grey area.

Because God doesn't break faith with us. It is the sinner who breaks faith with God.

Sincerely,

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl
Mary HAD to be immaculate so that original sin did not pass on the he Son in any way.
God's power made her to be that way so there was no diminishing of God's power except in the minds of some people.
With God ALL THINGS are possible.
And He chose to have His Son born perfect of Mary, a human being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So Anne, her mother, also had to be immaculate so that original sin did not pass on to Mary in any way.

[Wondergirl]

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Keeping God's commandments is how we love God. And a Jew who keeps God's commandments will be shown mercy though he reject Jesus

No one--Jew, atheist, Christian, Buddhist, African pigmy, Aleut--can keep God's commandments.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. Romans 3:10

[De Maria]

No one--Jew, atheist, Christian, Buddhist, African pigmy, Aleut--can keep God's commandments.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. Romans 3:10

Jesus Himself said:
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't think He would have said that if it couldn't be done.

And St. Paul seems to think that some have not sinned:
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

[De Maria]

So Anne, her mother, also had to be immaculate so that original sin did not pass on to Mary in any way.

Non sequitur. God caused St. Mary be born without sin. Not St. Anne.

[Akoue]

From the fact that Scripture says that all have sinned it doesn't follow that all had (or have) to sin. The two claims are in different modalities. So De Maria is quite right to say that the passages adduced by Wondergirl do not demonstrate the *impossibility* of sinlessness.

[Wondergirl]

Non sequitur. God caused St. Mary be born without sin. Not St. Anne.

God caused Jesus to be born without sin, so why Mary too?

[Wondergirl]

From the fact that Scripture says that all have sinned it doesn't follow that all had (or have) to sin. The two claims are in different modalities. So De Maria is quite right to say that the passages adduced by Wondergirl do not demonstrate the *impossibility* of sinlessness.

Some humans have lived sinless lives?

[De Maria]

From the fact that Scripture says that all have sinned it doesn't follow that all had (or have) to sin. The two claims are in different modalities. So De Maria is quite right to say that the passages adduced by Wondergirl do not demonstrate the *impossibility* of sinlessness.

Since Scripture says that death is the wage of sin, we have also the evidence that Enoch and Elijah never physically died. They were carried into heaven.

[De Maria]

God caused Jesus to be born without sin, so why Mary too?

Jesus is God.

[De Maria]

Some humans have lived sinless lives?

Enoch, Elijah, children who die in the womb, children who die before the age of reason. Even adults who never achieve the age of reason before they die.