[adenwestart]

Hey guys, quick question.

So my girlfriend and I have been dating off and on for roughly a year now. We had a rocky start, she dated one of my friends for a while then we ended up dating slowly but were still talking to other people. We became official after a couple months and ended up breaking up not too long after that... lets just say we had a few breakups usually not lasting longer than a couple days. From the beginning I was very cautious about this girl, she was interested in me and was very forward when we first met. Plus the involvement with my friend. Lets just say I didn't fully trust her. Over time and a lot of question asking I would find out little things here and there that she had hid from me or didn't tell me. A lot of them were relatively innocent, texts from a guy. The thing is... she always deleted her texts.. which I found strange, she was insanely private. Over time we got closer but I still just didn't feel like I trusted her fully... like she was one of those girls who didn't feel the need to always be honest and I feel I might have contributed by asking too many questions and causing her to worry about my reaction. Regardless I stumbled upon some lies recently, and I admit I'm not proud of the means... as I finally just went through her phone, but basically she has a past history with someone she claimed to be a friend. This friend of hers talked with her incessantly and although I always let it slide because she said they were just friends, it always made me feel strange. She would go out with this guy and this girl all the time, and take pictures which I eventually saw on a friend of hers fb page, which she (my girlfriend) had removed from her own. This was initially unsettling. After recently going through her phone I found texts to her female friend regarding this guy, saying how "you're right I should never have hooked up with him, we were the three musketeers but I guess now you will just have to be batman and robin". I want to admit that I know I had a rough time trusting this girl, and I know I became paranoid because of it... but I'm struggling with whether my insecurity in her is justified. So I confronted her about this and we nearly broke up for good. After a lot of crying on her part and texting her friend to try to talk to me (whom I haven't met) she finally came clean, told me this male friend and her had kissed over a year ago and that it was nothing serious. Told me also that she had lied about a few times they hung out and this incident because she didn't want me to not believe they were just friends. So she told me the truth, they had hung out quite a bit, she lied when they did. She kissed her female friend at one point (I know this isn't a big deal to some, but my girlfriend isn't really like that)and there were a slew of pictures she showed me that were goofy, but relatively inappropriate in the touching area. Basically these 3 were a bit too close. She insists she has told me the truth fully now and when I bring up my current dilemma she denies it adamantly. I am struggling because I wonder if I have just become paranoid or if I am actually on to something.

With all that said I introduce my current dilemma. Her text to her friend said "you were right I shouldn't have hooked up with him.." Although she claims this happened a year ago and wasn't a big deal I am struggling with believing her. To me if one hooks up with someone over a year ago... and its just a kiss... it doesn't make sense to text her friend about it now saying It shouldn't have happened. The reason she was texting her in the first place is because apparently he has feelings for her now. So why would these feelings suddenly manifest themselves unless "hookup" was more of a recent thing.

The potential reality in her side : I can see it being possible that these feelings suddenly manifested themselves because of all the hanging out recently and a past connection always being remembered.

The potential reality in my side: Her story is very convoluted and full of minitaure lies over time that make it really hard to fully understand. It is quite possible that something happened with these two that she regrets while her and I were together, but I assure you we have been to the edge and back so if she is still lying now she is insane.

My problem is, naturally if I heard this story(with no personal bias) I would think... this girl is still lying... it happened and she doesn't want to acknowledge it, its just too absurd to think 2 years ago would be talked about now especially with a friend who couldn't have been there to see it or know about it. But it is also possible that she is telling the truth and this situation is really just that ridiculous. I am choosing to believe her, or trying to. Given all of these little lies and withheld information on multiple occasions, is it reasonable for me to continue trusting her and is it possible for me to let all of this go and for us to have a normal relationship uninfested by paranoia?

Any opinions would be much appreciated
Thanks

[talaniman]

My honest opinion, she is a girlfriend in name only, and I see no future, or reason to waste time on BS, and drama.

[Jake2008]

One of the most very basic denominators in any relationship, is trust.

It takes a building of trust, over time, to feel confident and comfortable enough to say, yes, I trust her. There is no degree here- a little bit of trust, a medium amount of trust, etc. you reach a point in a relationship, where you either trust or you don't.

From there, you build the relationship. Solid ground started with knowing the person you love is trustworthy. That leads to honesty, integrity, values, common goals, etc. that you don't have to think twice about.

Without trust, you are left with doubt, and doubt will cause anything else to be compromised.

Think of it as building a foundation. You start from the bottom up. If the foundation keeps losing its footing, and you are constantly repairing it, you aren't ever going to be able to start adding to it, to give it structure.

None of your doubts are unreasonable, and the doubts are because of cracks in the foundation. So, do you want to sink more time and investment into justifying why you keep having to fix the foundation, or do you just go and build somewhere else.

[Cat1864]

I am a bit confused. Did she date your friend before you started dating her or during one of your break-ups?

Frankly, I don't know why you are dating her or why you started dating her. You don't seem to have trusted her since before you started going out. You don't seem to have tried to develop trust in her or the relationship. If I heard her side of the story, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she hid anything from you to keep you from going off the deep end. How possessive do you act when your friend is around her? Have you been sending out signals that she make her uncomfortable trying to be completely honest you?

It starts with her dating someone you know, your friend. It continues with her being more assertive in going for what she wants which you seem to have looked at as a negative. I get the impression that you have made your feelings about her being more open well known. I would bet she is a natural flirt and you don't know how to handle her being herself. You have snooped into her private messages. You have pretty much coerced her into telling you about her personal time with her friends. Then you get upset about how she acts with her friends. Has she crossed a boundary line? I don't know. I don't know if you keep moving it on her.

Have you tried to change her to better fit your concept of a girlfriend?

Instead of 'confronting' her, sit down and talk to each other. If you can't communicate with each other honestly and openly and work together, go you separate ways. If you look back and realize that there hasn't been any trust in this relationship from the beginning, let each other go.

[Grayfox]

If I were you I'd take Tal's advice.

[adenwestart]

The thing is, although I have thought about taking that advice many times very seriously, the truth is... I do like this girl and we have overcome a lot together. Some time has passed since the previous event and Ill be honest, I am no more certain of either. I wouldn't say I've tried to change her but there are definitely behaviors I didn't understand, that I felt like couldn't exist in a relationship. Naturally you need trust and you need a sense of security to be able to build more and more. She tries so hard to convince me that she is telling the truth and I can tell would go very far to get me to believe her. Even after how ridiculous I've acted and the many times I've brought this subject up (the story I told above) and how I don't know if I believe her she has taken time to rehash it and explain. I know it sounds overboard.. but my thing is... if she's willing to work this hard I don't think its just because she's worried about being caught in a lie, I feel like she honestly wants to overcome it and cares about me. My problem is I just keep having doubts or Ill requestion myself after she temporarily convinces me. Is my trust in her already screwed? Has too much happened in the past for me to be able to trust her and have something whole with her? Honestly...

[adenwestart]

So a girl I've been seeing for a year, we've had a few problems along the way, and in a previous thread I had expressed my concern with something I learned about a few months ago. Anyway so yesterday I found out that I was indeed right and she has gone through hell and back to hide it from me for the past 5 months, which other than cover up, have been real. I found out that someone she had sex with someone she claimed to be a friend not long after we started dating officially, then every time we would have problems would stay at his place. She had sex with him once and went down on him twice and this is all that I know as of right now. Her friend told me all this who is friends with the guy and apparently he had no idea she was with me and wants to message me to apologize and tell me everything. It was 5 months ago, she was confused about whether she wanted to be with me and we had been fighting for a while. The past 5 months have been good. However, I have asked her on multiple occasions about this guy and about what happened and the only thing she ever said was that they kissed a long time ago before I met her and when I found that out I told her I wasn't comfortable with them hanging out. So now the cat is out of the bag and she is begging forgiveness, crying, puking and what not... that whole thing that I feel a lot of people do during a break up. I broke up with her and don't know how I feel. My question is did I make the right decision and should I ever consider forgiving her and getting back with her?

Thanks

[talaniman]

She got caught cheating and lying and you were right to dump her. No excuses. Now the challenge is getting over her, not back with her, and NO MORE CONTACT with her is your first step in recovering from this failed relationship.

Of course you will be all over the place emotionally for a while. That's normal for a break up, but eventually, not only will the shock disappear, but your confusion will clear. But that's only if you strictly follow No Contact, and not let her contact YOU!

Focus on your studies, and future without her.

[adenwestart]

Yea that makes sense. So just to be clear. Even if it was 5 months ago I shouldn't let it go. No matter what future we could have or how serious about me she is now or even if I believe its all in the past. I shouldn't let it go. It seems like the right move and believe me its already made, but there is a part of me that knows she is serious about that all being done with. The guy talked to me told me everything. It has been roughly half a year. If this is without question the best move please explain how.

Thanks

[talaniman]

Being serious after a screw up of this magnitude would mean nothing to me if we were rocky and breaking up before this all happened. This was but what broke the camels back, in a series of things that indicates a serious disconnect in what was NOT good behavior.

So to be clear, you shouldn't let the cheating go with her, but you do let it go and heal for yourself, and not carrying the baggage from this relationship with you into the future. This experiment failed, you learn, and get beyond it through healing now. But you can't stop experimenting, and exploring. Just heal, and regroup between experiments, and experiences.

That's how you get beyond past disappointments, and get on with living, being healthy, and healthy. NO CONTACT!

[Fr_Chuck]

You never trusted her, found out she can't be trusted and now wonder if you should trust her ?
( which you never will be able to and just cause more heart ache.

Just move on and use this as a learning, if you don't trust them to start with, don't start.

[emopunk7]

Great advice here. Be strong and listen to these wise words. I took it and I'm so happy and single. Who would've known? I thought I needed a girl to be happy. I'm actually happier than ever since I took T-Man and a few others' advise. Good luck!

[puccini]

No one can know with certainty that things cannot be repaired or that she can grow and change. But you are up against it. There is mistrust and guilt, these are tough but not impossible things to overcome. But you have to be sure you want to put the mileage in and believe in the relationship.

[puccini]

You know this girl better than anyone on the forum: we are thin slicing, with negative connotations. This is a person in your life who has mattered to you and clearly still does. There is no simple answer.

Personally, I don't like to give up on people: we live in a throw away culture. You have been treated badly in this respect but you describe your relaionship as somewhat chaotic at the time. Not justifiable, of course, but it can precipitate things. Only you know the conditions of the relationship at that time and how different those conditions have been recently. You know what sort of person she is, she evidently feels for you or would not react this way. Your behaviour has not been perfect in searching though her phone (regardless of whether you feel it has been justified). I also think that you should not overlook whatever faults you have had in the relationship (we all do) just because you were the victim of infidelity: the arguments, what caused them and what was your role in them - it will help for the future, whomever you are with.

If you remain uncertain you might consider counseling (for you both) and perhaps you will both realise you are not right for each other and hopeully understand more and help heal the pain/guilt and move on in a better way.

Good luck with whatever you do.

[adenwestart]

I appreciate the advice. I mean yea I considered letting it go for a bit, but I have too much self-respect for that. On top of all this... I would just keep finding out more... the guy messaged me saying he had no idea we were dating, thought I was an ex... I asked him a few questions... turns out even when she admitted everything she was still lying. I think its this simple: Sometimes we want to do things for whatever reason... if it crosses a line it becomes easier to cross that line again and again. I think she messed up and continued to mess up because she wanted to, because it was fun and she didn't think we were going to work out... I also think she has trouble dealing with her emotions and wants male attention when she is in pain... pretty common with a lot of girls for some reason.. But it was working out and she realized she really wanted to be in this, maybe it did have a future and more than anything she had to forget what she did... erase it and never let me find out. So she drops these two people as friends and stops talking to the guy altogether (told him she was getting back together with me despite having been with me that whole time.. ) when I ask her about it she lies, she lies well and then must stick to that lie even as my questions become more detailed. In order to maintain the lie her answers must get more detailed as well and I think it irritated her because it mildy hurt her to lie and keep lying but she had been doing it for so long and knew she had to so she would get mad when I would bring it up. I think part of her was tired of lying but not willing to stop, which tells me one thing. She would put being with someone, her own selfish desires and sense for comfort over her integrity. She wouldve sooner broken up with me over less worse terms then admit all of that and be dumped and thought of as a slut and a waste of time. I've forgiven her... I mean I just found out more and more and more and really just started to feel sorry for her. She lied so much that there is no way anything she says can be trusted and she knows it, I can't even be upset anymore because its just too much to even memorize. She clearly really wanted to be with me... but that is why I won't go back. Anyone who values a relationship over their integrity doesn't have their together, I know many people have been there and I know its easy to mess up with something stupid and so hard to let something you actually care about go over it... but that would've been the best move. If she loved me, if she was ready for a committed relationship.. she wouldn't have messed up... and if she had integrity she would've spilled it immediately rather than kept her comfort blanket for 5 months. The only struggle I have is just that... It was 5 months ago... I don't believe in once a cheater always a cheater... Ive just seen too many people bounce back after something like that, It can really be an eye-opener and make you realize what you have. Anything is possible so if in months to come we've both grown and changed from this after healing and feel any kind of desire to start things up again then I guess I'd be open to it. If it happens it happens... I just don't think it will, I think we'll heal... realize how much of a cluster that relationship became, try to move on and forget the pain we both suffered and work on bettering ourselves. I think there would be too much baggage to rekindle it, but as I mentioned earlier... anything is possible, Im just indifferent to it as of now.

[adenwestart]

I hope I'm making sense. I appreciate all feedback... its hard to determine if I'm thinking clearly, can't really trust myself during a time like this.

And also... is rebounding wrong? I went out with my friends last night and one of them kept talking to girls for me while I acted like I didn't know what they were (I've been out of the game for about a year). I ended up just walking away every time one of them wanted to talk to me or said I was attractive. I just feel bad... feel like it might be too early, but people keep telling me it's the most quick way to get over a relationship... any thoughts?

[puccini]

Well, I think you have thought things through very well and have (or have developed) a mature attitude to all of this. Good luck.

Well, as for moving on, it can mask things, but in reality

My thoughts on rebounds: the diet we need when our body is deprived of certain nutrients is not the diet we need when our body is balanced. In a similar way when we are rebounding from a relationship our emotions are unbalanced and, I believe, what we need then is not what we will need when we are ourselves: so we may choose adversely. Also, I feel, the early foundations are important and while someone helping you through the grieving process bonds you together in may not bond you in the way you would normally have bonded, or healthily bond, you may have an attachment to that person of that previous suffering. We will always have baggage, you don't seem a selfish guy, ask yourself 'if I felt balanced was looking for a girl, would I want a girl who is feeling this way (the way I am now)?'

That said we can dwell for too long, we will always have baggage, but I believe you need time to heal and you want to give the right girl your best shot, and risk undermining it (with say distrust). Of course you will need to move on, but your emotions are still raw and it would be too early in my opinion move on.

All our experiences are limited, mine is just one of a clutch. Sample others too.

Good luck.

I very much agree with this 'I don't believe in once a cheater always a cheater... Ive just seen too many people bounce back after something like that.'

Even though the relationship is over, I think that it will matter a great deal for her to hear you say that (if you haven't already): that you believe in her.

[JudyKayTee]

I very much agree with this 'I dont believe in once a cheater always a cheater...Ive just seen too many people bounce back after something like that.'

Even though the relationship is over, I think that it will matter a great deal for her to hear you say that (if you haven't already): that you believe in her.

I'm an investigator. I conduct surveillances all the time. Some people cheat once, learn a lesson, never happens again.

Others are serial cheaters.

It's hard to know the difference.

[adenwestart]

Im sure telling her that would make her feel good. Im sure it would also probably give her false hope. I would love to know she smiled from it, but there's the other side of me, the immature side... the really hurt side that thinks she is disgusting and wants her to suffer, not smile. Haha. That side isn't aloud to make many decisions luckily, but it does exist. I know one day that side will go away and the other will be all that's left. The side that realizes she is a human being and she is hurting more from this being over. Unfortunately the most pain is probably from being caught, just because of how bad it makes her look . Its not even about the break up anymore, its about just looking like a crappy person and the pain from knowing someone you cared about will never see you the same way. If I were her I wouldn't even be able to get back with me knowing what I know. I couldn't let them forgive me, I'd want them, but not while knowing all I had done. There's just that part of you that knows that's not right, that part that can't let yourself have what you know you don't deserve, and I think If I got back together with her she wouldn't be able to respect me. I wouldn't respect her or myself and it would just be a matter of time. My situation is just too bad. You can cheat and recover, if its talked about, admitted to... if its an honest mistake, not ongoing, not calculated, and certainly not existing as a backup. Says something about her.

[puccini]

It doesn't have to give her false hope if you make it clear. You say that it shows what sort of person she is, yet by your own admission clearly cares about you and values who you are: that must tell you something about her too. You know your situation infinitely better than I do, and what is causing her upset, but I wouldn't assume from your descriptions that is simply about looking crappy that is the cause of her pain: when things like this come out the guilt and regret can no longer be compartmentalised: there is a merging of two worlds that have been desperately kept apart. I think you will find your way through this and have handled this well, as it appears from behind the screen.