[tomder55]

Show me where . Cruz's effort at defunding was in the CR debate ;NOT the debt ceiling . There are other issues in the debt ceiling that needs addressing like the long term liabilities of entitlements ,of which Obamacare is a new albatross . But that has not been a feature in the corrent debt ceiling negotiations (actually it's a stretch to call any of this "negotiations ".. you need at least 2 parties at a negotiation... not one like the emperor who says he won't negotiate )

[tomder55]

Hello again,

I need some help here... I've been thinking about this. Closed is closed, and that's just so. Nonetheless, I DON'T believe Obama is closing ANYTHING to PUNISH anybody - NOT because he's a wonderful human being - BUT because there's NO upside to it. Now, I'm ALL for political chicanery. I LOVE political TRICKS. I'm IN to tactics that make the Republicans look STUPID...

But, I'm NOT in to a trick that gains NOTHING for your side and gives EVERYTHING to the other side... Can you tell me what Obama GAINS by "punishing" the people?

excon

It's all pr . He was betting on the public getting pissed off over the inconveniences his punitive actions have imposed and that the public would turn on the Repubics and demand they settled. It's been a generally successful strategery except for the downside that he didn't anticipate that the public would equally blame him.

[tomder55]

Hello again,

I also wanna know HOW a default isn't really going to BE a default like the Tea Baggers are telling us. Do I need to link you to them?? You know who they are.. Tom Coburn, Rand Paul, Mike Lee, and others.

I probably don't have to. I'm sure our resident right wingers BELIEVE that crap too.

excon[/QUO...

When there is a default it will be a default . A default will not happen unless the emperor chooses to let one happen. There is enough revenue coming in daily to pay the debt obligations of the nation. It will take some hard prioritizing.. which means the emperor will have to do more than vote present and golf.

[tomder55]

You know Tom from a distance it looks different, you see there are some people who are willing to risk a financial meltdown which affects the whole world to make some lousy domestic point about whether some people get health insurance, looks pretty stupid and just a little gutless from here

This is what you should know . When the US had unlimited capital to waste ,consensus was built by horse trading and buying off the opposition. What happens when you run out of horses ? Politics then becomes a zero sum game. That makes negotiations very complex... especially when one side's attitude about it is "we won..you lost ...get over it " .

[talaniman]

You guys have been trying to repeal the social programs since Eisenhower. You have failed. Even King Reagan was against them, he failed. The right wing is desperate to corrupt the republicans and move them further right. You got your shutdown, and now want a default.

But purging your own will be less of you, not more. Scaring your own to keep them in line just means less rocks to throw. If you think your shutdown is unpopular, wait until we see your default.

[excon]

Hello again, tom, Tea Party default denier:

There is enough revenue coming in daily to pay the debt obligations of the nation.

Uhhhhh, no. If that were the case, we wouldn't be running a deficit. We DON'T borrow just IN CASE we don't have money on a given day. We borrow because we KNOW there are days when we DON'T have money.

If the debt ceiling isn't raised, on THOSE days, we DEFAULT!

Besides that, apparently you envision that we pay our bills like YOU do.. We sit at the kitchen table and write checks. If we need to wait a day or two to make sure we have the money in the account for a particularly large bill, we CAN..

But, the government pays its bills by computer. These are BIG bills too. We can't just jump in and reprogram the whole thing... We CAN'T. We absolutely CAN'T.

Excon

[tomder55]

You guys have been trying to repeal the social programs since Eisenhower. You have failed. Even King Reagan was against them, he failed. The right wing is desperate to corrupt the republicans and move them further right. You got your shutdown, and now want a default.

But purging your own will be less of you, not more. Scaring your own to keep them in line just means less rocks to throw. If you think your shutdown is unpopular, wait until we see your default.

Only the emperor can make a default happen.

[talaniman]

Wake up Tom, the reality is the only ones buying your horses are YOU guys. Even the TParty loves Social Security, and Medicare. LOL, change the name and they will love Obama Care too!!

[tomder55]

Hello again, tom, Tea Party default denier:
Uhhhhh, no. If that were the case, we wouldn't be running a deficit. We DON'T borrow just IN CASE we don't have money on a given day. We borrow because we KNOW there are days when we DON'T have money.

If the debt ceiling isn't raised, on THOSE days, we DEFAULT!

Besides that, apparently you envision that we pay our bills like YOU do.. We sit at the kitchen table and write checks. If we need to wait a day or two to make sure we have the money in the account for a particularly large bill, we CAN..

But, the government pays its bills by computer. These are BIG bills too. We can't just jump in and reprogram the whole thing... We CAN'T. We absolutely CAN'T.

excon

You only default if you don't pay the debt service. Again .there is plenty of income to handle that with revenue left over to run the operations of the gvt. although admittedly at a reduced level.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

you only default if you don't pay the debt service.

Nahhh.. If you don't pay Social Security, you default. Do you think that BOUNCING checks on our old folks is going to make the bond holders happy, EVEN if we're paying the debt service?? They understand that if you default OVER there, they're NEXT.

What's really really scary, is you guys HATE that man in the White House SOOOOOOO much, that you're WILLING to gamble the ENTIRE country on this stupid sh*t.

Cause WHEN that first brick begins to crumble, NOBODY can control where it stops...

It's time to declare WAR on the Tea Party, and put them in the FEMA camps.

What?? We should sit back and LET them destroy us?

Excon

[talaniman]

Hello again, tom:
Nahhh.. If you don't pay Social Security, you default. Do you think that BOUNCING checks on our old folks is gonna make the bond holders happy, EVEN if we're paying the debt service??? They understand that if you default OVER there, they're NEXT.

What's really really scary, is you guys HATE that man in the White House SOOOOOOO much, that you're WILLING to gamble the ENTIRE country on this stupid sh*t.

Cause WHEN that first brick begins to crumble, NOBODY can control where it stops...

It's time to declare WAR on the Tea Party, and put them in the FEMA camps.

What??? We should sit back and LET them destroy us?

excon

That's what Obama Care is REALLY about, getting the loony's on meds. They have been off them far too long.

[tomder55]

Hello again, tom:
Nahhh.. If you don't pay Social Security, you default. Do you think that BOUNCING checks on our old folks is going to make the bond holders happy, EVEN if we're paying the debt service?? They understand that if you default OVER there, they're NEXT.

What's really really scary, is you guys HATE that man in the White House SOOOOOOO much, that you're WILLING to gamble the ENTIRE country on this stupid sh*t.

Cause WHEN that first brick begins to crumble, NOBODY can control where it stops...

It's time to declare WAR on the Tea Party, and put them in the FEMA camps.

What?? We should sit back and LET them destroy us?

Excon

Wait a minute... we are told SS is funded for another 15 years or more . Oh yeah I forgot... the government plundered the trust fund and replaced it with IOUs . But guess what . Even then Social Security will be paid if the emperor decides to do so. The fact is that if a deal isn't reached by the self imposed deadline ,then the Treasury Department will be forced to prioritize payments on the national debt ahead of other expenses . That's all . Social Security will be paid by cashing in on those IOUs ;which are actually bonds. That's what happened in 1985... and a law passed in 1986 authorizes the Treasury to redeem SS bonds early for the purpose of “payment of benefits or administrative expenses.” In other words ,the law allows Treasury to redeem the bonds despite the maturity date . All it takes is the emperor's green light . Finally the emperor can and should pressure Reid to pass the 'Full Faith and Credit Act ' . A responsible President who really wants to limit the chance of default would push for it immediately . The emperor won't .

From Huffpo.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-..._b_905227.html

Social Security appears to be a key bargaining chip in the struggle over the debt limit. President Obama may have played smart politics when he threatened that, if the debt limit is not raised, Social Security checks might not go out on time. But he was needlessly scaring the program's fifty-five million beneficiaries, the vast majority of whom are highly dependent on each month's Social Security check. So was Speaker John Boehner who, in a recent interview, also spoke of the possible interruption of benefits.

The truth is that checks can go out, in their full amount, without adding a penny to the federal government's total debt. They can be paid without subtracting more than a tiny fraction of a percent -- if anything -- from the funds currently being used for other government purposes -- a reduction so small that it could be considered a rounding error.

[talaniman]

Bonehead lied about the votes for the senate bill to open up the government, and had to change the House rules to make sure the vote couldn't be brought.

House Republicans Changed The Rules So A Majority Vote Couldn't Stop The Government Shutdown

So House Republican leaders made sure no such vote could happen.

In the hours working up to the government shutdown on Sept. 30, Republican members of the House Rules Committee were developing a strategy to keep a clean CR off the floor, guaranteeing the government would remain shut down.

Though at least 28 House Republicans have publicly said they would support a clean CR if it were brought to the floor -- enough votes for the government to reopen when combined with Democratic support -- a House rule passed just before the shutdown essentially prevents that vote from taking place.

Bonehead speaks with forked tongue!

[paraclete]

Now this is why the president needs to rule by decree

[tomder55]

Now this is why the president needs to rule by decree

Emperors frequently do.

[tomder55]

We are finding out that the Dems really aren't interested in "clean" Cr's or debt ceilings. Yesterday we learned that they really want the sequester cuts to be eliminated . We learned today that they are willing to delay and alter Obamacare ;so long as the changes are good for their union patrons.
[QUOTE]The deal does include the more modest change of verifying the income claims of people applying for insurance subsidies. Democrats said they could agree to that change because it would merely enforce existing law.

The deal also includes a delay until 2015 of an ObamaCare reinsurance tax that is opposed by unions.
QUOTE] Senate leaders near deal to end shutdown, raise debt limit - The Hill - covering Congress, Politics, Political Campaigns and Capitol Hill | TheHill.com
The tax applies to all group health plans, but unions argued vehemently at their convention that it will raise their healthcare costs while providing them no benefit. Union plans are not eligible for subsidies for the simple reason that they are already helped by the tax code. Even the emperor recognized that when he denied them subsidies.



So in this case the goal of a clean CR is subjective. So now ,given that a clean CR is not a clean CR in the Dems eyes ,why aren't they including a repeal or delay of the medical device tax that EVERYONE recognizes as a bad idea ? Because it's expected to generate $30 billion in revenue. As carve outs and exceptions ,delays ,and subsidies have been granted there is a growing realization that there will not be anywhere's close to enough revenue to pay for the Obamacare boondoggle .
But for the Dems ,that is but a mild inconvenient fact . As long as they have carte blanc on their government credit card they can spend and spend and spend without worrying if the bills will ever get paid . That will happen in the future... They will be worm food by then .

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

Yesterday we learned that they really want the sequester cuts to be eliminated .

What? Right wingers are the only ones who can make demands? I think he ought to demand background checks for guns sales AND a repeal of Citizens United? Why not?

excon

[tomder55]

It's all part of the negotiations the emperor said he would not do.

[paraclete]

Hey, it's politics

[tomder55]

Hey, it's politics

It's his m.o. Create a crisis so he can exploit it . If he was indeed going to negotiate Obamacare ,he could've done it before the shutdown.