[arcura]

classyT,
That is a wonderful answer to this OP.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[asking]

And there's really no such thing as something "not specifically proscribed in the Bible." The answer to literally any question is there.

I meant forbidden. For example, slavery is not forbidden by the Bible. Poor ergonomics are not specifically forbidden, but that doesn't mean that stooping over a laptop for 8 hours is a good thing! :)

[JudyKayTee]

I meant forbidden. For example, slavery is not forbidden by the Bible. Poor ergonomics are not specifically forbidden, but that doesn't mean that stooping over a laptop for 8 hours is a good thing! :)

Out of greenies but I am giving you 10 out of 10 - very funny.

[NeedKarma]

Out of greenies but I am giving you 10 out of 10 - very funny.

Judy, please, the men are talking here. How about you head back into the kitchen and me a sandwich, OK honey?

[Alty]

The husband should be the final authority as he is suppose to be the head of the house. That is in a perfect world. That is how the Lord Jesus would Ideally want it.

The final authority? Still really having a problem with this. This whole thing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and is another point in favor of not being a Christian. No one has authority over me, absolutely no one!

Also remember that the husbands have been told to LOVE their wives as Christ loves the church. When a husband does THIS very thing.. it isn't hard to submit to him. And remember, the husband should always considered the woman's feelings and ideas. A man that truly loves his wife... compromises.

Again, Ahhhhhhh! Submit? Not going to happen, not in my life, not in my marriage, and I've been married for 14 years, so obviously we're doing something right. My husband wouldn't even dare to tell me what to do, he knows he'd be 6 feet under in the yard quicker then he could take it back. I don't care if he's sweet as pie about it, loving and nice, there will be no submission in this household.

There ARE times when perhaps there is a really hard decision to make and if the man is truly the type of man that the Lord has outlined. Then I DO think it is appropriate to follow his lead. If it should be the wrong decision... the Lord will take care of the wife and kids for obeying.

I am now banging my head on the desk. Every decision that comes our way is made together. If we don't agree, we compromise. I don't follow, I don't obey, that's what my dogs do.

NOTE: The Lord has made women in general to have MUCH influence over their husbands... you see it over and over in the Bible. Everything in balance really does work.

When you're equal, you don't need to influence, you just discuss.

Again, it's the OP's choice, her religion, I'm just having a hard time getting my head around this. I can't believe that people still live like this. I thought we had progressed, that women had made giant leaps forward.

I wish the OP all the luck in the world, I hope she's not as strong willed as I am, otherwise, the requirements to be a good Christian wife are going to be the end of her.

Good luck.

[classyT]

Alty,

OK, But I wanted to make sure you understood what the Bible actual means when the wives are asked to submit to their husbands. Like I said, when a huband loves his wife like Christ loves the church... it really does work. BUT I want to make clear it is WHEN. It isn't about being "OVER or ABOVE" her. A man who loves his wife doesn't think like that.. he considers her in all matters as she should him. The Lord doesn't want anyone to be the lesser in the marriage. He simply put a GODLY Christian man who follows Jesus in the home as the head. The bible also says that the wife and husband are to submit to each other as well. All I am pointing out is that is shouldn't be taken out of context or misunderstood. It is what it is in the Bible but it ain't what it ain't either. And I do believe it works in a Christian home where BOTH are submitted to one another, love one another, trust one another and most importantly believe that Jesus knows what he is doing.

As far as women having influence over men... that is just a FACT of life. Take a look at history.. Christian and non Christians.

I am a strong willed woman myself and there is nothing in the world wrong with that. It is part of my personality. I trust the Lord Jesus and his word ANYWAY. :)

[classyT]

Judy, please, the men are talking here. How about you head back into the kitchen and me a sandwich, ok honey?

IF you THINK this is what the Apsotle Paul meant when he wrote about submission under the inspiration of the HOLY Spirit then you are IGNORANT at best. It is belittling NOT ONLY to women.. but to ME as a Christian woman. That passage about wives submitting wasn't written to YOU or FOR you. It was written to the Christian woman. Soooooooo... How's about you run along and go show your brillance elsewhere... ok stud muffin?

[Alty]

ClassyT, I respect your belief, I just don't follow your belief.

To me the bible is still just an interesting story, but I don't want to start that conversation again. ;)

Like I said before, women weren't even considered human beings then, they had no rights, and the bible was written with that in mind, nes pas?

Surely even God would realize that the rules he set out back then don't work in today's world. You see, women are human beings now, we're allowed to wear shoes, walk alongside a man, vote, work for equal pay, fight in wars and everything. Does God really expect those women, ones that fight and die alongside men, to go home and submit to their husbands?

I just don't understand why people would use a very old book to determine how to live their lives in 2009! Times have changed, surely even God can accept that.

[Alty]

IF you THINK this is what the Apsotle Paul meant when he wrote about submission under the inspiration of the HOLY Spirit then you are IGNORANT at best. It is belittling NOT ONLY to women..but to ME as a Christian woman. That passage about wives submitting wasn't written to YOU or FOR you. It was written to the Christian woman. soooooooo.... Hows bout you run along and go show your brillance elsewhere ....ok stud muffin?

Classy, it was a joke.

[NeedKarma]

Classy, it was a joke.

No sense of humour at all. :( At least she recognizes my stud-muffinness.

[classyT]

No sense of humour at all. :( At least she recognizes my stud-muffinness.

NK...

LOL well I AM a mere female after all.

[NeedKarma]

Apparently I've been watching too much Mad Men. :)

[revdrgade]

There are different words in original NT text for "obey" and "submit"

The one used concerning marriage is "submit" (hypotasso). It really means "recognizing the authority".

Maybe that doesn't help much because our world has so confused what marriage is all about. For a long time the world tried to give the husband rights which God did not give... and for some time now the world has tried to make the roles of man and women the same.

To understand the vow, people need to find again what the different roles are.

I would have you note that in that same section, just before the "wives submit", it says:

Eph 5:21-22

"21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit to your husbands ........"
NIV

An example of what "submit" means can be found in St. Peter's declaration of disobedience to the church rulers:

Ac 4:14-20
15 So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16 "What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17 But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."

18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20 For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."
NIV

Peter RECOGNIZED THE AUTHORITY of the leaders... but could not obey them in this matter.

[Alty]

Sub·mit (sb-mt)
v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits
v.tr.
1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
2. To subject to a condition or process.
3. To commit (something) to the consideration or judgment of another. See Synonyms at propose.
4. To offer as a proposition or contention: I submit that the terms are entirely unreasonable.
v.intr.
1. To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at yield.
2. To allow oneself to be subjected to something.

Nope, not okay with it. :(

[arcura]

Altenweg,
You said, "No one has authority over me, absolutely no one!"
I very much disagree.
Whether you like it or not law, government, and police have authority over you whether you like it or not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Alty]

Altenweg,
You said, "No one has authority over me, absolutely no one!"
I very much disagree.
Whether you like it or not law, government, and police have authority over you whether you like it or not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

True Fred, but I don't choose to let them, that's just the way it is.

Marriage is a choice. Allowing someone to have authority over you is very different from accepting the authority we all have to adhere to.

[N0help4u]

I think this verse says it all

28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

To me it shows that submit does not mean to rule over but for each other to yield to EACH other.
If the husband really loves his wife there would be no ruling over.

[asking]

This whole question of what "submit" means is interesting to me. I submit to the law that says I should stop at stop signs in part because it's safer, in part because I don't want to get a ticket. But I also sometimes slow down and gently roll through (a "California stop") because I'm in hurry and also because I learned in traffic school that most cops won't ticket you as long as you show "respect for the law" and slow down significantly. So I submit to the law--just.

I also pay my taxes and do not try to cheat. I submit again. On its side, the government commits to enforcing the law fairly and providing services such as paved streets and police protection in exchange for my submission to the law. There is a kind of contract there.

I would submit to a cop in most situations because that person is doing his job, enforcing a law I mostly have already committed to submitting to. Also, s/he has the gun and the benefit of the doubt in a court of law. But I would not submit if I was asked to do something that was wrong, such as hurt another person or hurt myself. I would probably resist. The cop might then force me to submit but that's force, not willing submission, which is what we are talking about within marriage.

In the willing submission sense, I think married men and women agree to submit to one another's needs and demands. We submit to the idea that we will collaborate, cooperate, and compromise. But if a man asks me to submit unilaterally, without himself making a similar commitment, I would not willingly do that.

It strikes me that some people here are saying that a good man does in fact commit to some sort of contract--with his wife and with God--in exchange for her submission. If it's understood that way, it makes a kind of sense to me, although I still would not endorse it because it is so easily misunderstood.

I think a great many men see wifely obedience as something they are entitled to without any commitment to anything in particular on the man's side and, further, that obedience is something they can demand and enforce with physical abuse. I react very strongly against that, as I see it as slavery.

[arcura]

asking,
I do understand what you have posted.
I agree.
Fred

[classyT]

I think a great many men see wifely obedience as something they are entitled to without any commitment to anything

You nailed it! And what I so much want to point out is simply this... it is NOT how the Lord intended it to be. It is NOT what the word of God even SAYS!