I'm getting married this summer...
In what ways will he "rule" me? I'm fine with it if it's in a kind, loving, caring way. I'm fine with him not wanting me to go out drinking, not wanting me to have male friends he doesn't like, and I'm fine with him making big decisions in our live such as where we're going to live. But I don't like the idea of him telling me to go get him a glass of water when he's too lazy- I would just to be nice but if he DEMANDED it, that's another thing. He's not like that though and I couldn't think of a related example between the two of us. But here's one:

Sometimes he won't let me go out with my friends because he thinks guys will hit on me. Is that OK? I never get to go out, especially with the friends he doesn't like, one of which I have been friends with since kindergarten. He doesn't even like it when I'm just at her house (with no other guys around). He just doesn't like her and doesn't want me to be with her.

Where do you draw the line of "ruling" the woman.

What I'm basically trying to ask is what kind of authority does he have over me. I don't want to be treated like a slave or a child. Do I have to do everything he says? Do I have say in anything? Especially if my significant purpose is to be a mother, do I have to do what he says when it comes to parenting?

For, example, he thinks that when we have teenagers we should let them drink if they wish but only in our home so that they are safe . I think that's just a way of telling them it's OK when it's not. I like the idea of telling them to never do it but if they slip up and drink and are in a bad situation, regret it, need my help, whatever, to just call me no matter what time it is so I can help And get them out of a bad situation. I'm getting way ahead of the game since we don't even have kids yet but in this situation would I just have to let my kids drink in my house since he's the "ruler" of the household? And drinking in moderation isn't even against the bible (or am I wrong?) so I couldn't use the argument of following god's word before his.

And what about the roles of a woman:
She should also prepare healthy, nourishing meals in accordance with the food laws. See the papers Vegetarianism and the Bible (No. 183) and The Food Laws (No. 15); cf. also Leviticus 11:1-47 and Deuteronomy 14:21.
What if he's a better cook and refuses to eat my food because it tastes so bad? Ha ha.




PLEASE USE BIBLE PASSAGES TO BACK UP YOUR OPINIONS

The husband should not rule the wife.

The Bible says for the wife to submit to the husband AS he submits to God. Which means if he is following God then he will have your best interest at heart and not be ''ruling'' you.

If he thinks kids should drink then he is not submitted to God so the chain of submission is broke.

Eph 5: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansinga her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

The husband should not rule the wife.

The Bible says for the wife to submit to the husband AS he submits to God. Which means if he is following God then he will have your best interest at heart and not be ''ruling'' you.

If he thinks kids should drink then he is not submitted to God so the chain of submission is broke.

Eph 5: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansinga her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

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Do you know of a passage that would say drinking even in moderation is wrong? People always use the excuse of everyone in the bible drinking wine and I know it says only in moderation but I can't imagine giving a 17 year old some wine and saying "now, only drink a little bit" like they'll never want to have more than they should.

I was going to ask you what country you are in in my first reply but I'll ask here.

I don't know any Christians in the USA that tell kids to drink a little wine but I do know that it is common in Italy.

The Bible says IN moderation. I think each case is different according to the family and culture but other things need to be taken into consideration.
If you explain the situation you are dealing with a little better than might make it easier to answer what is best in your situation

Red wine has resversotol in it which is an antioxident which is why it was considered good in Bible days.

”No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5:23).”


Here are a couple sites

I don't know how accurate they are because I'm getting too tired to read but they should cover the basics.

Christians and Alcohol

75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol

Some people use a reasoning against alcohol saying that some wine referred to in the Bible as acceptable was more like non alcoholic cider.

Okay, I don't frequent the Christianity boards anymore, but I saw this and I have to say something.

Husband as ruler?

Are we still living in the 1700's? Did we not get the right to vote, bear arms, fight for our country, get equal pay for equal work and all that jazz?

Are there really people still out there that allow this?

No bible passages from me, sorry, I'm just in shock.

When I got married we took out the verse "honor and obey" because we both knew it wasn't going to happen. We both honor each other, but obeying is what our dogs do.

I am an equal in my house. If he wants a glass of water he can get it himself. If he wants to eat and I'm not home, or don't feel like cooking, he knows how to work the stove. All the decisions in our household are made together, if we don't agree we talk it out and reach a compromise.

Obey. Ruler. Sigh.

Do you have to walk 10 steps behind him in public too?

N0help4u,
You made some excellent post and points on this.
At the moment there is nothing I can thing of to add other than the husband is not the ruler of the family, God is. The husband is expected to obey and follow Gods way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

First 1200 or 1700 or 2100, the bible does not change, merely the desire of the hearts of the people who need to follow the word of God.

But the bible is not one verse, the churches that take each verse out of context are dangerous, since you have to look at where the manloves the women as Christ loves the church

Fr_Chuck,
Yes indeed.
A man who loves his wife as he should (and the bible does tell us what such love is) is not going to be a bossy person but rather a loving, understanding, cooperative spouse.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I was going to ask you what country you are in in my first reply but I'll ask here.

I don't know any Christians in the USA that tell kids to drink a little wine but I do know that it is common in Italy.

The Bible says IN moderation. I think each case is different according to the family and culture but other things need to be taken into consideration.
If you explain the situation you are dealing with a little better than might make it easier to answer what is best in your situation

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Yes I'm in America. I know a lot of parents who let their kids drink but not many christian parents who allow it. I don't really have a specific situation. I don't even have kids yet. Haha. We were just talking about what it would be like to have kids in a few years when we're out of college. We just disagreed on how we would handle the no drinking situation. His parents let him drink and he started at an early age. My mother pounded me about not drinking or doing drugs and I was so against it all for the longest time but I still eventually drank when I was legally allowed to. We have our own opinions on what would work. It's not really an issue yet at all. I just wish I could find a verse to make him change his view. I'll show him the one you posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Red wine has resversotol in it which is an antioxident which is why it was considered good in Bible days.

”No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5:23).”


Here are a couple sites

I don't know how accurate they are because I'm getting too tired to read but they should cover the basics.

Christians and Alcohol

75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol

some people use a reasoning against alcohol saying that some wine referred to in the Bible as acceptable was more like non alcoholic cider.

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Thanks for the links, I'll read them tomorrow when I'm not so tired also :) goodnight. Sweet dreams.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Fr_Chuck,
Yes indeed.
A man who loves his wife as he should (and the bible does tell us what such love is) is not going to be a bossy person but rather a loving, understanding, cooperative spouse.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Thanks. I was probably reading out of context. I was reading a huge article for hours that was full of verses and then someone's interpretation and explanations of the verses.


Here are some verses that seem to make the husband look like a controlling ruler:

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church

IPeter 3:1-2 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

It's certain words like "submit" "head of the wife" "subjection" "obey"

I know there are verses that follow that kind of tell the man how not to use his authority.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

So it's fine then to not have the man have the last word, final decision, as if he's the all knowing man? We can talk about it together and make our own decisions? This is how I imagined it all along and this is how we are now but it's not what I'm getting out of certain passages. I'm just trying to understand it all. I originally looked up the role of a christian woman because I'm getting married in the summer and when we talk about our future, he wants me working all the time even when we have kids but I want to stay home and raise them until they are all in school. So I was showing him passages in my favor. But then I saw passages in his favor that I don't like such as me doing his laundry. A woman should have the family’s clothing cared for and in good repair (Prov. 31:21).


There are other parts of the article talking about woman's roles that I was wondering if they MUST be followed. As an example, what if he cooks better? Does it really matter if I don't cook all of the family's meals? I grew up on Happy Meals and spagetti-o's. I always forget an egg or an ingrediant or overcook food. I'm a horrible cook. :p but I do get that it would work great in a family house hold having these separate roles and working together. I feel like I won't be following what the bible tells me to... or is it just a suggestion?

From the article:She should also prepare healthy, nourishing meals in accordance with the food laws. See the papers Vegetarianism and the Bible (No. 183) and The Food Laws (No. 15); cf. also Leviticus 11:1-47 and Deuteronomy 14:21.
[I]


My grandparents are the only people I grew up with who are married and my mother was the only one who raised me, so I don't even know how any of this is "supposed" to work or if there is any "supposed to" to it.

If you're a dedicated married christian can you just talk about how you run your household and make decisions together? It feels so weird to even ask that question because it seems so simple. Maybe I'm over complicating things.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Okay, I don't frequent the Christianity boards anymore, but I saw this and I have to say something.

Husband as ruler?

Are we still living in the 1700's? Did we not get the right to vote, bear arms, fight for our country, get equal pay for equal work and all that jazz?

Are there really people still out there that allow this?

No bible passages from me, sorry, I'm just in shock.

When I got married we took out the verse "honor and obey" because we both knew it wasn't going to happen. We both honor each other, but obeying is what our dogs do.

I am an equal in my house. If he wants a glass of water he can get it himself. If he wants to eat and I'm not home, or don't feel like cooking, he knows how to work the stove. All the decisions in our household are made together, if we don't agree we talk it out and reach a compromise.

Obey. Ruler. Sigh.

Do you have to walk 10 steps behind him in public too?

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Ha ha. I know, that's how I feel.

My fiancé and I are both christian but I know way less about the bible. When we talk about the future he says he wants me to always work and that he won't support me. He'll be making 4 times as much as me (a computer scientist and I an art teacher). I just want to start having kids in a few years and wait until they are in school to start working and he doesn't like the idea for some reason. So since we are both Christians I was looking up verses as my "role" since staying home taking care of the kids would be in my favor.

But I don't think that what you're describing is against what the bible says. From what I read it is a partnership with two people working together to make the household and family work. But there are certain verses that I don't understand and that's why I'm asking people. I was bothered by certain words that were chosen such as "rule" or women being the "weaker vessel" but I read a lot more and it's not as bad as the wording sounds. There's verses telling a husband to love his wife as he loves god, to not disrespect her as he wouldn't do to god. So it's not like he's going to be like "go get me a beer woman!" like I was originally interpreting the passages.

I have no idea how christian women live these days since times are obviously not the same. I'm clueless. I don't even know what a lasting married couple looks like. I don't even know much about the bible. I'm just trying to understand it and that's what I'm asking from people. I'm probably just over complicating everything. Our relationship works fine the way it is now. The passages just threw me off and the more I read, the more I see that the way things are, are how they should be.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

I respect your choices, I respect your religion, but I still can't get my head around it.

I've been married for 14 years, been with my husband for 19, we've lasted and will continue because that's who we are.

But, submitting to my husband, allowing him to make all the important decisions because he's a man, no.

If this is what you want, then by all means, go for it, but it's not for me.

The bible was written so long ago, you have to take into consideration that times have changed. Back then women weren't even considered human beings, simply because of their sex. They were forced to walk behind their husbands, shoeless, because they weren't worthy of shoes. Men could beat their wives, because they were property, not equals.

It's 2009, not 1709, and times have changed.

I really couldn't see myself cowtowing to a man, that's just not me.

If I lived in the 1700's I'd be burned at the stake, that's a fact, because I never would have submitted, I never will.

Good luck to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I respect your choices, I respect your religion, but I still can't get my head around it.

I've been married for 14 years, been with my husband for 19, we've lasted and will continue because that's who we are.

But, submitting to my husband, allowing him to make all the important decisions because he's a man, no.

If this is what you want, then by all means, go for it, but it's not for me.

The bible was written so long ago, you have to take into consideration that times have changed. Back then women weren't even considered human beings, simply because of their sex. They were forced to walk behind their husbands, shoeless, because they weren't worthy of shoes. Men could beat their wives, because they were property, not equals.

It's 2009, not 1709, and times have changed.

I really couldn't see myself cowtowing to a man, that's just not me.

If I lived in the 1700's I'd be burned at the stake, that's a fact, because I never would have submitted, I never will.

Good luck to you.

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The unfair treatment of women was because of society not because of the bible. The passages I read were taken out of context from an article I was reading, making it sound like the man is an all knowing controlling ruler. But in the actual bible, right after that it tells the man to love his wife as he loves god, putting her on a very high petistool.

Many christian and catholic women in my family have not lived the traditional roles. My great grandmother in the 30's was a part of the industrial revolution when they finally let women work in the factories when all the men were off at war. She worked every day of her life because she wanted to. My aunt is a construction worker with my uncle and they make all the decisions in the family together, which is what I want. At first I wasn't getting the impression that it was OK from the out of context passages I was reading. And I was confused because I don't know any christian couples other than my grandparents who actually play those gender roles.

Basically I just read a bad sexist article thinking that the bible said the same when it doesn't at all.

Do you not believe in God?

Here's what disturbed me about your post;

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sometimes he won't let me go out with my friends because he thinks guys will hit on me. Is that OK? I never get to go out, especially with the friends he doesn't like, one of which I have been friends with since kindergarten. He doesn't even like it when I'm just at her house (with no other guys around). He just doesn't like her and doesn't want me to be with her.

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The words "let me" then "I never get to go out, especially with the friends he doesn't like"

That's controlling, demanding, domineering and in my life, not acceptable.

Another red flag that leads me to believe that you won't have a say in anything, that he does have control;

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what I'm basically trying to ask is what kind of authority does he have over me. I don't want to be treated like a slave or a child. Do I have to do everything he says? Do I have say in anything? Especially if my significant purpose is to be a mother, do I have to do what he says when it comes to parenting?

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Authority? Are you getting married or going to jail? Doing what he says? Is her your husband or your father? As for parenting, yes, you do have a say, they're you kids too.

This just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Like I said before, I respect your choices, your religion, I really do, but this just shocks the heck out of me.

He is using God as an excuse to make himself God


I have one word

RUN

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

he is using God as an excuse to make himself God


I have one word

RUN

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Out of greenies - but here's a pretend one. I was also rather horrified by the "he won't let me ..." statement.

Whether you (OP) realize it or not he already IS telling you what to do and if you obey this and any other directive, you are already submitting to his will. Saying it during a ceremony doesn't matter much if you're already doing it.

And what does believing or not believing in God have to do with it? Did I miss something? If you were addressing Alty she LIVES by the "do onto others" rule. Are you questioning her religious beliefs, belief system, integrity?

I certainly took the vow to love, honor and obey - and I had the choice whether to use the word "obey" in the ceremony. I'm a traditionalist so it stayed in.

Does it mean my husband controlled me, told me what to do, made decisions by himself? No.

As a side note in response to your statement "PLEASE USE BIBLE PASSAGES TO BACK UP YOUR OPINIONS" - caps are shouting and there's no need and please don't attempt to direct the manner in which your question(s) will be answered.

In general, research shows that egalitarian marriages last longer than those where the wife is expected to obey her husband. Major decisions should be negotiated, not decided by fiat by one person.

You might find this website thought provoking:
Support for Egalitarian Marriage

If your fiancée is very rigid about whether you should or should not work once you have children, you should pay attention to that, as it can be a significant source of tension during the child rearing years.

My ex husband nagged me constantly because I DID work, whereas my sister's husband pressured her to work full time despite their having three children and her wanting to stay home with them. Their kids did not turn out well... My other sister had five kids and stayed home and her kids turned out better. I had two and worked part time and I am happy with the result.

Darnit, I have to spread the love too.

Judy, that's just it, saying it in a ceremony, well, that's one thing, letting your husband control you is another.

The OP's fiancé is already controlling her. She claims not to want to be a slave, but she already is one. Submit or else, do what I say or else, I have to admit, I'm not that well versed in the bible, but I don't think it says that anywhere.

I still think you should keep in mind when the bible was written, what a woman's role was then, the fact that women were nothing, just breeders and care takers, not even considered human beings. Jesus wasn't around when women got the vote. He wasn't there when we went to war alongside men. Women aren't expected to be barefoot and pregnant anymore, and allowing a man to rule over you is a huge step back from the progress we've made.

I really can't get my head around this. Why would anyone allow someone else to rule them?

Do you live in Iran? Is that it? If so, then I can understand a bit better, because you don't have a choice, but, if you live in the US or in Canada, or millions of others places, then not "submitting" to your husband isn't going to get you shot in the street and I don't know why you'd give up your power as a human being with rights.

This shouldn't be about the bible, this should be about being a human being.

I agree with NoHelp. Run! I would.