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arcura · Dec 13, 2008, 12:24 AM

De Maria,
What you have been given so far is very good.
To me Jesus gave us a name of the trinity God when He told his apostles and sisciples to go out into the world an baptize people in the NAME Of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
He did not say in the NAMES of.
For me to understand the trinity possibility all I need to do is realize that each of us in a trinity of body, mind, and spirit which work together for us to function but each has its own purpose identity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Akoue · Dec 13, 2008, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Akoue
I was very much helped by the writings of Watchman Nee. To understand the eternity of God he used the expression eternity of the past, so that he could seperate the eternity of The Father from the eternity of The Son.The Son is eternal because He is beyond human time but The Son says about The Father John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Interestingly, the pericope you offer was also taken by Marcellus of Ancyra to show that Christ's reign will not be eternal. The followers of Eusebius insisted on the insertion of "and his kingdom will have no end" into the Nicene Creed as a response to Marcellus's teaching. I wonder what you make of it.

JoeT777 · Dec 13, 2008, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Akoue

Joe,

The principal error of Arianism lay with the denial of co-equality among the Divine Persons. Arius, on the strength of numerous NT passages (the Son does the will of the Father, for example), argued that the Son is subordinate to the Father. Arianism, like Sabellianism, is a variety of subordinationism.

Arius held that the substance, or ousia, of the Godhead cannot be shared without destroying its unity (hence homoiousios instead of homoousios). If it could be shared then God is divisible and so subject to change. So the Son, according to Arius, is a creature, he is is begotten (cf. the Creed, where the Son is said to be unbegotten, aggenetos), and so is not co-eternal with the Father because the Son had a beginning.

Maybe that's what I'm missing, an Arian creed - I've never seen one.

Which creed? The Arians tried to push 2 or 3 different creeds through various councils for some years after Nicaea.

JoeT

adam7gur · Dec 13, 2008, 12:48 AM

Akoue
This is exactly why we have to understand WHO Jesus Christ is!

De Maria · Dec 13, 2008, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Here's what i believe!
It is written'' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'' My question is , does God have a beginning?No , He does not .But it says that the Word was God!
Let me ask something else.. Does God have a shape, an image? If I say that He does then I would be limitting Him and that's not wise because God has no limits of any kind.But God wanted to create a human being that would be in His image , so if He has no image then what would that human being look like?
God has to give Himself a shape , an image and that's how he gave birth to the Word.
It is written''All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.''Who is John talking about here?He's talkinhg about The Word!The Word made all things.
Does God give birth? It is written that both man and woman are made in His image so yes , God gives birth! And whatever God gives birth to, cannot be something less than God just like humans give birth to humans and dogs give birth to dogs.How was The Word born? It is written that for all those things that we cannot understand , nature is our example.
''21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
''22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
In a way that's how The Word was also born , or taken out of God , 'cause someone does not have to come out of a woman's legs to be born.My son was taken out of my wife's belly , but i assure you he is born!
So Man and Woman were ONE FLESH , and that's exactly what God and The Word are.They are ONE ! Man and Woman are one flesh and God and The Word are ONE GOD!
The Word is God's image and ''All things were made by him'' , He , The Word made us humans in His image , the image of His unseen Father , God!
''14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,'' The Word became the person that we call Jesus Christ.
''5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And BEING FOUND in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.''

That's how i see it!

JoeT777
You can find everything i wrote in the internet.Google echad for example ..
I am Greek but even the Greek translation sometimes makes me wonder , so I had to search the Hebrew text to make things clear for myself. So I found out that there was an Israelite named Maimonides who translated the Torah and changed the word echad to yachid and the picture was very different .Also during the time that the Jews were exiled in Babylon there were translations from Hebrew to Aramaic which was the most common language at that time .Those translations are called The Targums.In those Targums many times the word Lord is translated to The Memra of The Lord, which means The Word of The Lord.For example Genesis 28:21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God.Instead of the Lord,the targums write The Memra(The Word).
You may have heard that the Jewish people never believed in The Trinity theory, but that is totally wrong.You may hear that the Trinity theory has its roots to paganism, but it is paganism that immitated the Trinity theory.
There is a great book called The Jewish Trinity,it helps!
As for if it is important for us to know if there is such thing as The Trinity or not , I believe it is , because otherwise we cannot have a clear view of WHO JESUS CHRIST IS!

Thanks for the reference of the book. I'll look for it.

But I had already heard that some Jews had begun to suspect the Trinity. There is a hint of it in the Scriptures themselves and some of the Catholic mystics have mentioned it.

Anyway, your input on this subject is very helpful. Thanks.

De Maria · Dec 13, 2008, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria,
What you have been given so far is very good.
To me Jesus gave us a name of the trinity God when He told his apostles and sisciples to go out into the world an baptize people in the NAME Of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
He did not say in the NAMES of.
For me to understand the trinity possibility all I need to do is realize that each of us in a trinity of body, mind, and spirit which work together for us to function but each has its own purpose identity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Oh yeah! I forgot to mention that one.

arcura · Dec 13, 2008, 01:00 AM

De Maria.
What you have so far is very good.
In my case I have several well known and used passages with point to the trinity.
But the one that carries a lot of weight with me is that Jesus gave us a name of the trinity God when He told is apostles and disciples to go out into the world and baptize people in the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
He did NOT say NAMES of.
Also I keep in mind that each of us is a trinity. That help me understand it.
We each are a trinity of body, mind, and spirit in one being.
They all work together for us to function but each has its own identity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria · Dec 13, 2008, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Akoue
Maybe this will help you..
We as humans cannot have a direct contact to God The Father , we cannot go directly to Him because it is written that we cannot see His face because we will die.So EVERYTHING has to happen through The Word and The Spirit.
The Word HAS a start,it is before creation.The Word preexists creation but The Father preexists The Word , just like every father preexist his son.

Amen! We are talking about an Eternal reality not about a temporal reality. As I understand it, I'm not sure that the Son and the Holy Spirit were not GENERATED in eternity. Otherwise, the relationships we speak of would be meaningless.

I believe that is what we mean when we say, the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Therefore, I believe it can be described as a BEGINNING IN ETERNITY as opposed to a beginning in time.

If that makes any sense?

De Maria · Dec 13, 2008, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Akoue

This helps. And I think it especially helps me to articulate what I find to be so difficult.

As the Trinity has come to be understood, the Father is the--I'm going to use the Greek because I know you're Greek--arche, the sole arche in the Godhead. So the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed *from* that one arche. But the relations of the Persons are outside of time: Before creation, from all eternity, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit have been distinct Persons. All three together, one God, pre-exist creation. Now, as De Maria's very helpful post brings out, these three Persons of the Godhead manifest themselves in and through creation in their distinctness. Only the Son, the eternal, un-begotten Word, became flesh, for instance. So the relation of Father to Son in the Godhead isn't like the relation of a father to his son: A father exists before his son. But the Father, although he is the arche of the Son, does not pre-exist the Son. There never was a time when God was not a Trinity.

Does this make sense? Tell me if it doesn't so I can try again.

That agrees with my understanding. The mystery is that the Arche and the Son and Spirit exist outside of time AND at the same time TRANSCEND time, therefore there is no such thing as "before" which is a word which expresses a relationship in time.

What do I mean by TRANSCEND time? I mean that time does not affect any person of the Divine Trinity. Time affected Jesus when He became man. But only His human nature. But time does not affect His Divine Nature.

And, although it is correct to say that God exists outside of time, I believe it is more correct to say that God transcends time. Why? Because God is omnipresent. Therefore, he is present in and out of the time/space continuum.

The time/space continuum is contained in the Universe. But God is greater than all His Creation. And God is at the same time smaller than the smallest particle in His Creation because the Laws of Time and Space are His Creatures as well.

Great topic guys!

arcura · Dec 13, 2008, 01:20 AM

adam7gur,
If so then why did Jesus tell us to pray directly to the Father which starts with "Our Father which art in heaven."
Everything in that prayer is directed to God the Father even the plea for forgiveness of our sins.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura · Dec 13, 2008, 01:26 AM

De Maria and Akoue,
Wow!!
Thanks much for your discussion on that.
It really gives me something to ponder.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

adam7gur · Dec 13, 2008, 02:42 AM

Fred
Think about this.. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son , as the Word that created everything is our everlasting Father , because The Word created us although The Word is not THE Father!

When Jesus tells us John 14:6 no man cometh unto the Father, but by me , He means what He says but at the same time He knows that He is The Word that became flesh and His name is Everlasting Father! So is it wrong to call Jesus , Father? I 'd say , no it is not although He is not THE Father!

adam7gur · Dec 13, 2008, 02:55 AM

Everyone!
Thank you all!This is koinonia, this is ekklesia, this is what makes the body move, in Spirit and in Truth!
Hallelujah!

ironsheik7 · Dec 13, 2008, 11:43 AM

Evidence for

Matthew 1:20, 21 "the Lord (the Father) ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Matthew 3:16, 17 "Jesus ... the Spirit of God ... a Voice from heaven (the Father)"
Matthew 12:18 "I ... My Spirit ... on Him"
Matthew 22:42, 43 "Christ ... the Spirit ... Lord (the Father)"
Mark 1:9-11 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"
Mark 12:35, 36 "Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord (the Father)"
Luke 1:35 "the Holy Spirit ... the Highest ... the Son of God"
Luke 2:26, 27 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ ... Jesus"
Luke 3:21, 22 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"
Luke 10:21 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... Father"
Luke 12:9, 10 "God ... the Son ... the Holy Spirit"
John 3:5 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
John 3:34, 35 "God ... the Spirit ... the Father ... the Son"
John 4:24, 25 "God ... a Spirit ... Messiah ... Christ"
John 14:16, 17, 26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... in My name"
John 15:26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... of Me"
John 20:21, 22 "Jesus ... Father ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 2:32, 33 "Jesus ... God ... the Father ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 2:38, 39 "Jesus Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... God"
Acts 4:30, 31 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... God"
Acts 5:31, 32 "God ... a Prince and Savior ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 7:55 "the Holy Spirit ... Jesus ... God"
Acts 8:14-16 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Acts 10:38 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 10:46-48 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord"
Acts 11:16, 17 "the Lord ... the Holy Spirit ... God ... the Lord Jesus Christ"
Acts 20:21-23 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"
Romans 1:1, 3, 4 "God ... His Son, Jesus Christ ... the Spirit"
Romans 5:5, 6 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Christ"
Romans 8:2, 3 "the Spirit ... Jesus ... God ... His own Son"
Romans 8:8, 9 "God ... the Spirit ... the Spirit of Christ"
Romans 8:16, 17 "the Spirit ... God ... Christ"
Romans 14:17, 18 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ ... God"
Romans 15:12, 13 "Root of Jesse (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
Romans 15:16 "Jesus ... God ... the Holy Spirit"
Romans 15:30 "The Lord Jesus Christ ... the Spirit ... God"
1 Corinthians 6:10, 11 "God ... the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit"
1 Corinthians 12:4-6 "Spirit ... Lord ... God"
1 Corinthians 7:39, 40 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
1 Corinthians 8:2 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
2 Corinthians 3:3, 4 "the Spirit ... Christ ... God"
2 Corinthians 13:14 "Jesus ... God ... the Holy Spirit"
2 Corinthians 5:5, 6 "God ... the Spirit ... the Lord (Jesus)"
Galatians 4:6, 7 "God ... the Spirit ... Son ... Father ... God ... Christ"
Ephesians 2:18 "through Him (Jesus) ... Spirit ... the Father"
Ephesians 2:21, 22 "the Lord ... God ... the Spirit"
Ephesians 3:14, 16 "the Father ... Jesus Christ ... His Spirit"
Ephesians 4:4-6 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God and Father"
Ephesians 5:18-20 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Father"
Colossians 1:6-8 "God ... Christ ... Spirit"
1 Thessalonians 4:6-8 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
1 Thessalonians 5:18, 19 "God ... Father ... Christ ... Jesus ... Spirit"
2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14 "God ... Lord ... God ... Spirit ... Lord Jesus Christ"
Titus 3:4-6 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Jesus Christ"
Hebrews 2:3, 4 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
Hebrews 3:4, 6, 7 "God ... Christ ... Holy Spirit"
Hebrews 6:4-6 "Holy Spirit ... God ... Son"
Hebrews 9:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"
Hebrews 10:29-31 "Son of God ... Spirit ... Lord ... God"
1 Peter 1:2 "God the Father ... Spirit ... Jesus Christ"
1 Peter 3:18 "Christ ... God ... Spirit"
1 Peter 4:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"
2 Peter 1:21 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Lord (Jesus)"
2 Peter 2:1 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Lord (Jesus)"
1 John 4:2 "Spirit ... Jesus ... God"
1 John 4:13, 14 "Spirit ... Father ... Son ... Savior"
1 John 5:7 "Father ... Word ... Holy Spirit"
Jude 20, 21 "the Holy Spirit ... God ... Lord ... Jesus Christ"
Revelation 1:9, 10 "Jesus Christ ... God ... Jesus Christ ... Spirit"
Revelation 3:5-7 "Father ... Spirit ... He that hath the key of David (Jesus)"
Revelation 14:12, 13 "God ... Jesus ... Lord ... Spirit"
Revelation 21:9, 10 "Lamb ... Spirit ... God"
Revelation 22:16-18 "the offspring of David (Jesus) ... Spirit ... God"

Akoue · Dec 13, 2008, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Akoue
we have to understand WHO Jesus Christ is!

I couldn't agree more with you on that one.

Jesus Christ is the incarnate Word of God, the second Person of the Holy Trinity. For me, as I think about Christ, I find myself called to work for a better understanding of his Divine, as well as his human, nature. I hope the conversation will continue: Striving with others better to understand the Divinity we praise is a wonderful way to pass the time.

De Maria · Dec 13, 2008, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Akoue

I couldn't agree more with you on that one.

Jesus Christ is the incarnate Word of God, the second Person of the Holy Trinity. For me, as I think about Christ, I find myself called to work for a better understanding of his Divine, as well as his human, nature. I hope the conversation will continue: Striving with others better to understand the Divinity we praise is a wonderful way to pass the time.

Psalm 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

arcura · Dec 13, 2008, 06:54 PM

Akoue,
Yes discussing who Jesus was/is IS s great way to use a person's time it great benefit
Jesus often spoke as a human and as God the Son, He often acted both ways depending on the situation.
Reading about that has caused many people to be confused and coming to various conclusions including statements such as Jesus acted or spoke in contradiction of himself..
Jesus felt physical pain as a human and spiritual pain a spiritual being.
Did the other members of the trinity so?
I think not at least directly in regard to the physical.
But I'm NOT sure about that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Akoue · Dec 13, 2008, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue,
Yes discussing who Jesus was/is IS s great way to use a person's time it great benefit
Jesus often spoke as a human and as God the Son, He often acted both ways depending on the situation.
Reading about that has caused many people to be confused and coming to various conclusions including statements such as Jesus acted or spoke in contradiction of himself..
Jesus felt physical pain as a human and spiritual pain a spiritual being.
Did the other members of the trinity so?
I think not at least directly in regard to the physical.
But I'm NOT sure about that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Hi Fred,

It's a good question. Only the Son suffered. There was a view, called patripassianism, that held that the Father suffered, but that was anathematized.

arcura · Dec 13, 2008, 07:39 PM

Akoue .
Thanks for your answer.
I did not know of that.
Fred

JoeT777 · Dec 13, 2008, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by ironsheik7

evidence for

Matthew 1:20, 21 "the Lord (the Father) ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Matthew 3:16, 17 "Jesus ... the Spirit of God ... a Voice from heaven (the Father)"

Ditto...

(list shortened for clearity

Sheik,

A list of Scripture is all you think the Holy Trinity is? Shouldn't you like to explain some of these (please not all of them!)? And what of the Old Testament Scripture?

JoeT