Please provide your evidence for or against the doctrine of the Trinity.
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Please provide your evidence for or against the doctrine of the Trinity.
I'll try to get the ball rolling on this one. While I do believe in the Trinity, I've always found it to be a particularly challenging doctrine to wrap my head around (please forgive the dangling preposition). Scripture doesn't always appear to me to be univocal on this score. There are, to be sure, places where the divinity of Christ is affirmed (the Prologue to the fourth Gospel, for example). And certainly Scripture is clear that there is only one God. So we have monotheism together with the divinity of Christ.
Alongside this, we also have a distinction made between Christ and the Father. So there is one God; Christ is divine; and Christ and the Father are distinct from one another. This leaves us a long way from the Trinity.
I'll throw in another complication (from my perspective, anyway): Early Christians who did believe in the Trinity understood this in manifold different ways. The earliest writers didn't think of the Trinity as many of us now do (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but as Father, Word, Wisdom. Some, indeed many, thought of the persons of the Trinity not as co-equal but rather conceived of the second and third persons of the Trinity as subordinate to the Father (Arianism, for example). We when look at it, the doctrine of the Trinity which most of us learn today was defined relatively late, with Nicaea's confirmation of the teaching of Athanasius.
So, there, I suppose I provided evidence for AND against the Trinity! Or, rather, if not evidence then at least complications. I hope we'll all have a chance to wade through them here.
While this is a very good question, I don't know what kinds of answers you're going to get as far as "evidence." I believe in the Trinity because that's what I was taught and since religion is based on beliefs... well... when I hear "evidence" I think something tangible.
The first of the 10 commandments is...
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
In Hebrew this is called The Shema and it is like this... YHVH ELOHIM YHVH ECHAD.
The word echad means united one.
For example Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
The word used in Hebrew for one is echad,man and woman makes a united one.
And also... Numbers 13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes , again echad ,for a cluster is a union of grapes.
And again... evening and morning makes a day , a union which again is echad!
The word in Hebrew to say strictly one , only one is yachid , for example... Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, here the word is yachid.
Furthermore the word ELOCHIM is the plural of EL which means God so ELOCHIM means Gods, so to sum up the Shema goes like that more or less...
Hear O Israel,The Lord your Gods is a united one!
If there is no Trinity and God is only one person then why is the first of all commandments declaring that there is only one God?To me it is because the people of Israel saw God , but it is written that no one can see God and live , but there were people like Abraham and Jacob that saw God with their own eyes and lived , so who did they see?
They saw THE WORD before becoming flesh,because it is written that John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
To the same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made!
So the people of Israel got in touch with THE WORDand realized that THE WORD is GOD but they also saw THE SPIRIT upon some people and they also realized that THE SPIRIT is also GOD.
So it is the most natural thing for God to make it clear for the people of Israel in the first of all commandments that (if I may say) everything you see and realize that is a God , is not many Gods , but one united God!
I'm making a copy of this one and keeping it in my personal file.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Wonderful!
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Are you proficient in Hebrew, or is there a source I can look up? I'd like to cite this in the future and need a reference?
JoeT
And while offending all Christians, does it really matter exactly how the trinity is or is not or even if it is.
Jesus Christ the Son of God, died for our sins
We are blessed by the Holy Spirit,
If they are or are not part of the Father also, does it change any aspect of our Salvation.
Chuck,
I always thought you were fairly level headed but that answer totally blew me away!
The trinity is immensely important in a Christian's life. Or at least it should be.
Ok, How?Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
God the Father,
Jesus the son came to relieve us from the Old testament laws and to place the laws on out hearts.
The Holy Spirit among other things is here to help and guide us. Since I do not have mu bible with me at this time. I cannot spout scriptures, but they are there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Christ didn't come to “relieve” us of the Old testament. He came to fulfill it, to establish his Church, establish a new Covenant, and to atone for our sins. And the Holy Spirit was sent by Christ. But, I'm sure this is what you meant.
However, these are things we are taught. In the dawn of Christianity this wasn't clear. So, what I think Father was driving at was why one God with distinct personalities; so how would this affect our salvation without the Trinity?
JoeT
I'm inclined to agree with those who hold that the doctrine of the Trinity matters a great deal indeed for the economy of salvation. But there is another issue here which is itself quite pressing: monotheism. If the Father is divine and the Son is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine, it is incumbent upon Christians too explain how this can be--or what it even means--unless we are to accused of idolatry. There can be only one God. And though--and I think everybody will agree with this--than none of us can comprehend the Trinity fully, still we must be able to grapple with the question of the nature of the Divinity if we are to have any idea what we worship and to whom we pray.
I think what Fr_Chuck means is that what matters most is love, faithfulness and obedience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
God didn't intend for all of us to be Theologians. If we were all Theologians, the work which He prepared from the foundation of the world would never be done.
As I understand it, but I am no linguistic, the word used in the Bible for work, is the same word for worship. Therefore, we believe that we glorify God in our work. Our work is worship and our worship is work.
Here are some ways in which I've explained it in the past:Quote:
But there is another issue here which is itself quite pressing: monotheism. If the Father is divine and the Son is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine, it is incumbent upon Christians too explain how this can be--or what it even means--unless we are to accused of idolatry. There can be only one God. And though--and I think everybody will agree with this--than none of us can comprehend the Trinity fully, still we must be able to grapple with the question of the nature of the Divinity if we are to have any idea what we worship and to whom we pray.
First, it is a mystery. But a mystery to which God has given us insight here on earth.
You and I share a human nature, do we not? Yet we are distinct persons. So what's the difference between us and the Holy Trinity.
Well, the difference is our limited nature. Human nature is such that we are limited. We are restricted to our space. You in yours and I in mine. But Divine Nature is such that it can't be limited. The attributes of Divine Nature is such that it is Eternal, Omnisicient and Omnipresent.
What does that mean? Well, that means that there can only be One God. God is eternal and therefore there is no "room" for any other God. If God were not eternal, then there could be many gods. But there is only one because the Divine Nature is eternal.
What about the persons? How can there be three Divine Persons? What is Person? A person is distinguished by an attribute that can't be shared. You and I share a human nature but we don't share a name, a personality, a body, a mind and many other characteristics. What is it that the Holy Trinity do not share. An identity, a role, a relationship.
The Father is in the Son, but the Father is not the Son.
The Son is in the Father but the Son is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit is in the Father and the Son, but the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
Three persons SHARE one Divine Nature.
BUT, you say, those three Persons aren't like you and I. They share everything but identity. Whereas, you and I share nothing but nature. True. But even in human beings, there are some "personalities" which share a body, a mind and a spirit.
-It is proven, psychologically, that there are people who suffer from multiple personality syndromes. These multiple personalities share the same nature.
You might say, yeah, but that is a disorder? True. When the personalities are in conflict, it is a disorder.
Although I am not aware of any examples where the personalities were not in conflict, it is possible that is because, when they aren't in conflict, there is no need for corrective intervention.
You might also say, but you and I share the human nature with many human beings. We are talking about a Trinity, not a multiplicity.
True. But the Trinity is revealed as such. If God had revealed a Quintity or even a Centurionity whatever, that is what we would have to accept. God has revealed He is a Trinity, nothing less and nothing more. Therefore we believe and accept although the Mystery is almost beyond the ability of the unaided mind to comprehend.
Then there is the mathematical response. Certainly, 1+1+1 is equal to three. That is only partially true however, because there are Three Divine Persons. But the three persons are also consubstantial. That is, they share the same nature. Since they share the same nature, then it is also correct to use this mathematical formula, 1x1x1 = one.
Finally, a look at nature will show how the entire world reflects the Holy Trinity. If we look at space we see that everything is three dimensional. Everything has width, heighth and depth. Yet everything is one. This is a reflection of the Holy Trinity.
If we consider time, we see that time has past, present and future. Yet where do we divide. When does the past become the present and the present become the past. Time is seamless. Time is one.
I hope that doesn't confound matters even worse.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Here's what I believe!
It is written'' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'' My question is , does God have a beginning?No , He does not .But it says that the Word was God!
Let me ask something else.. Does God have a shape, an image? If I say that He does then I would be limitting Him and that's not wise because God has no limits of any kind.But God wanted to create a human being that would be in His image , so if He has no image then what would that human being look like?
God has to give Himself a shape , an image and that's how he gave birth to the Word.
It is written''All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.''Who is John talking about here?He's talkinhg about The Word!The Word made all things.
Does God give birth? It is written that both man and woman are made in His image so yes , God gives birth! And whatever God gives birth to, cannot be something less than God just like humans give birth to humans and dogs give birth to dogs.How was The Word born? It is written that for all those things that we cannot understand , nature is our example.
''21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
''22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
In a way that's how The Word was also born , or taken out of God , 'cause someone does not have to come out of a woman's legs to be born.My son was taken out of my wife's belly , but I assure you he is born!
So Man and Woman were ONE FLESH , and that's exactly what God and The Word are.They are ONE ! Man and Woman are one flesh and God and The Word are ONE GOD!
The Word is God's image and ''All things were made by him'' , He , The Word made us humans in His image , the image of His unseen Father , God!
''14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,'' The Word became the person that we call Jesus Christ.
''5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And BEING FOUND in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.''
That's how I see it!
JoeT777
You can find everything I wrote in the internet.Google echad for example..
I am Greek but even the Greek translation sometimes makes me wonder , so I had to search the Hebrew text to make things clear for myself. So I found out that there was an Israelite named Maimonides who translated the Torah and changed the word echad to yachid and the picture was very different .Also during the time that the Jews were exiled in Babylon there were translations from Hebrew to Aramaic which was the most common language at that time .Those translations are called The Targums.In those Targums many times the word Lord is translated to The Memra of The Lord, which means The Word of The Lord.For example Genesis 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God.Instead of the Lord,the targums write The Memra(The Word).
You may have heard that the Jewish people never believed in The Trinity theory, but that is totally wrong.You may hear that the Trinity theory has its roots to paganism, but it is paganism that imitated the Trinity theory.
There is a great book called The Jewish Trinity,it helps!
As for if it is important for us to know if there is such thing as The Trinity or not , I believe it is , because otherwise we cannot have a clear view of WHO JESUS CHRIST IS!
I admire, and perhaps even envy, De Maria's clarity. I'd just like to offer a few words in an effort to highlight something that I, for one, find to be terribly difficult--though also terribly important.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Part of the difficulty, I think, results from the fact that they do share identity, they are homoousion, con-substantial. So if we are counting up all the substances that exist, we get one God. But then we wouldn't perceive the triune character of the Godhead. The distinctness of the Divine Persons, while not a distinctness of or among substances, is a real and eternal distinctness. For many, this is perplexing deeply perplexing.
Add to that that whatever God is he is necessarily; there is nothing about the Divine nature that is contingent. So necessarily, God is one and God is three. Some early Christians looked at this and said, okay, there is one God and he acts in three different modes, he reveals himself in different ways. This came to be called modalism, or economic Trinitarianism, because the distinctness of the Persons is understood insofar as it is revealed in the economy (oikonimia, order) of creation. But creation isn't eternal, whereas the distinctness of Persons is eternal. God does not change; we do. Economic Trinitarians like Hippolytus could help the rest of us to understand the oneness (or monarchy) of God, but left us stranded when it came to the eternal distinctness of Persons within the Godhead. But this is really important since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all believed to be divine. So, unless we are to abandon monotheism, we have to have some way to explain the eternal plurality of Persons, while at the same time safeguarding the eternal unity of God.
Akoue
Maybe this will help you..
We as humans cannot have a direct contact to God The Father , we cannot go directly to Him because it is written that we cannot see His face because we will die.So EVERYTHING has to happen through The Word and The Spirit.
The Word HAS a start,it is before creation.The Word preexists creation but The Father preexists The Word , just like every father preexist his son.
This helps. And I think it especially helps me to articulate what I find to be so difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
As the Trinity has come to be understood, the Father is the--I'm going to use the Greek because I know you're Greek--arche, the sole arche in the Godhead. So the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed *from* that one arche. But the relations of the Persons are outside of time: Before creation, from all eternity, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit have been distinct Persons. All three together, one God, pre-exist creation. Now, as De Maria's very helpful post brings out, these three Persons of the Godhead manifest themselves in and through creation in their distinctness. Only the Son, the eternal, un-begotten Word, became flesh, for instance. So the relation of Father to Son in the Godhead isn't like the relation of a father to his son: A father exists before his son. But the Father, although he is the arche of the Son, does not pre-exist the Son. There never was a time when God was not a Trinity.
Does this make sense? Tell me if it doesn't so I can try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Why not Arius' homoiousios (similar substance) where Christ proceeds from God, and the Holy Sprit proceeds from Christ?
The only reason St. Thomas seems to give is that with homoiousious (similar substance) we don't have three distinct person's
Holy Trinity:
- God the Father, Almighty maker of all seen and unseen.
- The Son, the Word, consubstantial (homoousious - having the same substance) with the father
- The Holy Spirit, “is the one who proceeds [goes forth] by way of love”
As I understand it the Arian creed doesn't allow for the Holy Spirit to move by way of love. Hence the error, (here's were I'm unsure) Not to mention the obvious error of denying the two natures of Christ.
JoeT
Joe,
The principal error of Arianism lay with the denial of co-equality among the Divine Persons. Arius, on the strength of numerous NT passages (the Son does the will of the Father, for example), argued that the Son is subordinate to the Father. Arianism, like Sabellianism, is a variety of subordinationism.
Arius held that the substance, or ousia, of the Godhead cannot be shared without destroying its unity (hence homoiousios instead of homoousios). If it could be shared then God is divisible and so subject to change. So the Son, according to Arius, is a creature, he is is begotten (cf. the Creed, where the Son is said to be unbegotten, aggenetos), and so is not co-eternal with the Father because the Son had a beginning.
Akoue
I was very much helped by the writings of Watchman Nee. To understand the eternity of God he used the expression eternity of the past, so that he could separate the eternity of The Father from the eternity of The Son.The Son is eternal because He is beyond human time but The Son says about The Father John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
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