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classyT · Nov 25, 2008, 10:23 PM

I agree with you Tj3 and Fred... but I'm just saying that we will be RAPTURED out of here and therefore the Holy spirit who is dwelling in us will go with us. Therefore I do believe that HE is the restrainer. He will no longer be down on earth indwelling the believer because we will be in heaven. ( I know you don't believe in the rapture fred.. but that is what I was talking about)

Tj3 · Nov 25, 2008, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

I agree with you Tj3 and Fred... but I'm just saying that we will be RAPTURED out of here and therefore the Holy spirit who is dwelling in us will go with us. Therefore I do believe that HE is the restrainer.

I agree that He is the restrainer.

He will no longer be down on earth indwelling the believer because we will be in heaven. ( I know you don't believe in the rapture fred.. but that is what I was talking about)

I do not agree that He will not be indwelling believers on earth, because there will also be those who are also saved during the tribulation after the rapture.

Rev 7:13-14
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
NKJV

arcura · Nov 25, 2008, 10:52 PM

classyT,
Yes the Holy spirit could be the "HE"
But I believe that The Holy Spirit is eternal and always present as is the Father and Son.
So as long as this planet exist HE will be here and everywhere else.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

N0help4u · Nov 26, 2008, 08:02 AM

I agree with Tj3 that it means the Holy Spirit will not be omnipresent in a sense but the Holy Spirit will still be within the believers.
I believe we will be here until the plagues.
The Bible says the believers during the tribulation will have a seal and no one will be able to harm them. So why if the ones who come to Christ after a rapture can endure it why wouldn't the Christians that have been Christians before hand be able to?

Also like I was saying before, I believe that if there is a pretrib rapture it is for the ones who have been living a (pure & holy) life according to God's will. Some of the Christians that believed they were Christians because they were professed Christians that claimed they believed and maybe even went to Church but their hearts aren't really right will see that they really weren't Christians and some will then realize that and get their life right in the tribulation and that is part of how what Tj said will happen to have Christians during the tribulation.

classyT · Nov 26, 2008, 08:25 AM

TJ3,

YES! I TOO believe that he will indwell those that accept Christ as their savior after the rapture BUT right after the rapture... the Church is GONE... no restrainer... the antiChrist is then free to come on the scene. I don't know how long it will take for people to become SAVED after that but I do know and believe that all those who have been given the truth and rejected it will NOT get the chance to repent. They will believe the strong delusion that God sends for rejecting the truth.

What I thought we were discussing is how the AntiChrist comes out of the closet so to speak. It is after the restrainer is removed.. that would be the believers in christ or the Church. And I believe the HE that galveston refers to is the Holy Spirit that indwells the church. CAN YoU IMAGINE what will happen when we are GONE! Talk about Chaos. Yes, we are restraining the antichrist.

I have rarely disagreed with you TJ3 and I don't think I do now. I do wonder why you don't believe for sure that their will be a pre trib rapture. That surprised me a little. And here I thought you were ALMOST as smart as me in the word... lol lol ( I am teasing of course)

classyT · Nov 26, 2008, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
Yes the Holy spirit could be the "HE"
But I believe that The Holy Spirit is eternal and always present as is the Father and Son.
So as long as this planet exist HE will be here and everywhere else.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I actually do agree that the Holy spirit will always be present too. I just was trying ( probably poorly) to say he won't be operating through the Church if we are ALL suddenly taken up. I hope that makes better sense.

Tj3 · Nov 26, 2008, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

TJ3,

YES! I TOO believe that he will indwell those that accept Christ as their savior after the rapture BUT right after the rapture....the Church is GONE...no restrainer...the antiChrist is then free to come on the scene. I don't know how long it will take for people to become SAVED after that but I do know and believe that all those who have been given the truth and rejected it will NOT get the chance to repent. They will believe the strong delusion that God sends for rejecting the truth.

What i thought we were discussing is how the AntiChrist comes out of the closet so to speak. It is after the restrainer is removed..that would be the believers in christ or the Church. and i believe the HE that galveston refers to is the Holy Spirit that indwells the church. CAN YoU IMAGINE what will happen when we are GONE!? Talk about Chaos. yes, we are restraining the antichrist.

I have rarely disagreed with you TJ3 and i don't think i do now. I do wonder why you don't believe for sure that their will be a pre trib rapture. That surprised me a little. and here i thought you were ALMOST as smart as me in the word...lol lol ( I am teasing of course)

I think that we are largely in agreement.

I am not disagreeing with a pre-trib rapture. That has been the position that I have taken for most of my life, but I am not sure that I can discount a mid-trib rapture. One thing that comes to mind is the references to those who will say that there will be peace and security, and then will come the end. The antichrist therefore has to establish his false peace first for that to happen, and from what I see that appears to be in the first 3.5 years. That would mean that a mid-trib is a real possibility - if I understand the time sequence correctly.

arcura · Nov 26, 2008, 06:59 PM

N0help4u ,
That is IF there is a rapture which I think will not be as it is preached.
Fred

Galveston1 · Nov 28, 2008, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

This passage is interpreted to be the marriage of Christ to His bride The Church who is making herself ready for His coming.
Rev 19: 7. "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
8. And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9. And he said to me, "Write, `Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

Here the bride is said to be New Jerusalem. A city is the people who inhabit it, and the redeemed of all ages and all nations will make up that city.

In view of this, I doubt the Church can claim to be the bride. I still believe the Church is the Body of Christ, at least while on Earth. In Heaven, the Church will certaily be a PART of New Jerusalem.

classyT · Nov 28, 2008, 07:30 PM

Gal,

You don't think the Bride is the Church? Whoa... ok. Well now you got me to thinking and I need to go to the Word and get the verses that would explain why I DO. See this is why I like these discussions. It makes me study. Plus it is interesting to understand what other Christians think. I have never heard that before. I thought EVERY christian thought the bride was the church.. guess I lead a shelter life... lol

arcura · Nov 28, 2008, 07:32 PM

Galveston1,
I also believe that The Church is also the body of Christ and His bride.
It is also guided by the Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Nov 28, 2008, 07:55 PM

Just a point of clarification. Often there are many uses for the word "church". When we are speaking of the church as the body of Christ, that speaks of the body of believers, living or dead, not the denominations or church organization.

There may be members of the body of Christ within church organizations, but membership therein does not make one a member of the body oif Christ.

I just wanted to make that point because I have seen far too many misunderstandings about the meaning of the word "church".

arcura · Nov 28, 2008, 10:14 PM

Jesus spoke Aramaic.
The word he used tthat is translated as "Church" means assembly.
That is a group of related or like minded people on a particular subject.
The word Church in the bible is the ONE that Jesus established of HIS apostles and disciples whom He taught.
The book of act tells how those select people caused Jesus' Church to grow. That and history show that those select people went great distances spreading the good news about Jesus as far away as Britania, Africa, and India to name a few.
It soon became fragmented with other groups such as the Gnostics calling themselves a church as history and ancient documents illustrate.
The Church that Jesus founded is alive and well and growing yet today. It is now call the Catholic Church. The bible and real authentic history prove that fact.
Any other teaching is bogus.
Fred

classyT · Nov 28, 2008, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

The Church that Jesus founded is alive and well and growing yet today. It is now call the Catholic Church. The bible and real authentic history prove that fact.
Any other teaching is bogus.
Fred

Fred,

How shall I say this so that you might understand. AIN'T NO WAY! The catholic church is MAN made not God made. Read Paul epistles. :) ( no, I don't think for one second I am going to change your mind :p) Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

Peace and Kindness AND understanding who the first church really was..

classyT

adam7gur · Nov 28, 2008, 10:48 PM

Well,
The Greek word for church is ekklesea and this word simply means the sum of those who are chosen.Now I don't know what church literally means in English but in Greek ( and I am Greek ) that is the literall meaning.
Catholics say that history proves that the Catholic church is authentic one . The Greek orthodox church says exactlly the same.
My question is , if a good father has a corrupted child is this child entitled to claim that it is authentic?
I am not talking about the love of the father here but if a child or a grandchild or a grand grand child does not follow the teachings of it's father and lives it's life not according to what the father tought but what others tought.Is that child authentic?
Can Catholics or Greek Orthodox or anyone of us claim that we are authentic ones?
Honestly , can we?
Do we stand in the faith like Peter , like John , like Paul, like Barnabas or like anyone of those unmentioned by name in the Bible saints?
Honestly , can we?
Look around you, in any kind of church that you are in! Is this even close to the vision that you have for that sum of the early chosen ones ?
Why do you think the rapture has not happened yet?It is simply because there is no authentic church on earth to cause the rapture!
There are believers here and there , no doubt about that , but we are far from calling ourselves authentic sum of the chosen ones!

Tj3 · Nov 28, 2008, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Catholics say that history proves that the Catholic church is authentic one

There is no authentic "denomination" because Jesus did not found a denomination. The Catholic church denomination began in 325AD.

Scripture says that the authentic church of Christ of the body of all believers.

Look around you, in any kind of church that you are in! Is this even close to the vision that you have for that sum of the early chosen ones ?
Why do you think the rapture has not happened yet?It is simply because there is no authentic church on earth to cause the rapture!
There are believers here and there , no doubt about that , but we are far from calling ourselves authentic sum of the chosen ones!

The good news is that Christ's return does not depend on how good we are, or our denomination is, but because none of us have any righteousness to merit the return of Christ. The good news is that the only righteousness that believers have is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. He will therefore return when He is ready, not when we merit His return.

Tj3 · Nov 28, 2008, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Fred,

How shall i say this so that you might understand. AIN'T NO WAY! The catholic church is MAN made not God made. Read Paul epistles. :)

That is right.

There are no denominations in the Bible, and certainly Jesus never endorsed denominations. There is nothing wrong with denominations if they are tools of ministrfy, but when men submit themselves to their denominations, then the denomination to one degree or another takes the place that rightly belongs to God.

arcura · Nov 28, 2008, 11:28 PM

classyT,
Jesus did not found denomination.
Denominations did not come along till after Luther.
The original Church Jesus founded IS the Catholic (universal) Church ni matter what you want to believe
Ay first is was simply called The Church. Later when others not offiliated The Church came along it was renamed ThE Catholic Church so that it could be accuartely identified,
Then along came the great split when some of the Greek churches split from the Catholic because the did not any longer what to recognize the Pope at head of the universal Church.
Yes it was founded by a man called Jesus Christ.
That is real authentic history. It IS the truth that some people refuse to accept.
BUT any other history concerning that is bogus history.
As history prove there were not denominations till after Luther.
That is what started the use of the term denominations so claiming that there were no denominations mentioned in the Bible is true but it is also PURPOSELY misleading.
Accept or reject it as you want to.
Fred

Tj3 · Nov 29, 2008, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
Jesus did not found denomination.

Right. The first one came about in 325 AD, founded by Constantine who established it as the Roman catholic denomination.

arcura · Nov 29, 2008, 12:29 AM

Tj3,
I am trying to ignore you but as long as you keep posting bogus history I and others will tell the truth.
Constantine did not found any denomination. None existed until after Luther.
THAT Is the truth.
I have already told the truth about why the name was changer from The Church to the Catholic Church.
I know you do not accept that even though for many years you have been to the truth.
Authentic History books PROVE it.
Believe as you want to but don't try to peddle your bogus history while others who know the truth can see it for you WILL BE exposed.
Fred