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Rapture, a word coined many years after Jesus spoke about his return. This we all seem to agree on.
So the question of the day,
Do you believe in Pre-tribulation Rapture,
Post tribulation rapture
Or does it really matter to you when God chooses to send Jesus for his church?
No matter. Be ready today and it will not matter.
Is the Rapture when all of God's followers will be brought to Heaven so they are not on earth when the battle between god and the devil starts? I forget it's been a looooong time since religion class.
To many the "rapture" is the point in history where Jesus comes in the clouds to take his church, the restraining force here on earth, away. At that time satin is free to rein here on earth. In laymen's terms this is the tribulation period. At the end of the tribulation Jesus and all the saints returns to earth for the second time in history for the great battle of armageddon. At this time the false profit and all his cohorts are cast into the lake of fire. Satin is bound for a thousand years.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
I am a Pan-millenialist.
That is; I believe it will all Pan out in the end... because God is in charge and all of our theories and conjectures will not change God's immutable will in this matter. All we are accomplishing by conjecture is to become angry with each other for having different opinions about something God has chosen not to reveal precisely .
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written."
NIV
I believe in the pre trib rapture and I think it matters very much!!
There are so many opinions on forms of "millenium"(a 1,000 years, 7 years, etc) and when the tribulation started, will start, will end, that I certainly don't want to argue the matter. We just don't know any more about that than we know the era or day when God will end this world.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
The people of God ARE in tribulation right now. We are constantly being attacked. The attacks seem bolder now that we are in a "post-Christian" era in this country.
John 16:32-33
32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
RSV
Acts 14:22
22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
RSV
2 Cor 1:3-4
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation , that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2 Thess 1:4
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
KJV
The expectation of many is that there will be a greater "tribulation" than we are suffering now. But no matter what that is, we, the elect, will be sustained by God.
As far as "rapture"(not a word used in the Bible) is concerned, the rising of all the saints together to meet in the air is on one particular day. And that Day will be the end of the present heaven and earth:
Matt 24:30-31
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
NIV
1 Cor 15:50-54
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet . For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
NIV
1 Thess 4:13-18
13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
NIV
2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
NIV
These words God gave to us not so that we would be afraid, but as they say; that we might be comforted by the assurance of God's love and power to keep us strong in our faith. So we are encouraged to stay close to Him that our faith in Him will not wane.
If the Lord's return is imminent, then only the pre-trib rapture could be true.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
If the rapture takes place at the mid-point of the tribulation than Jesus cannot return for at least another 3 1/2 years.
If the rapture takes place at the end of the tribulation than Jesus cannot return for at least another 7 years.
Does it matter? Absolutely. The eternal promises given to Israel are made null and void if it is the church going through the tribulation period.
450donn,
I do not believe in the rapture as it is taught in the last days series of books.
I believe that Jesus will return but once only and all the world will be aware of it when it happens via world wide media coverage.
I do believe we are now in the midst of the tribulation period which began during World War I.
We are now in the tribulation period of the Church.
It is fragmenting more rapidly than ever before with many denominations having serious problems while at the same time more people are leaving the church and becoming secular.
Note that many counties which were once very Religious are now becoming more and more secular.
Believe in God is being attacked my many governments and courts.
I pray for world wide peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
I accept the pre-trib idea of the rapture. Paul gives us more information on it than anyone else.
II Th 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)
This tells us that The Anti-Christ cannot be revealed until "he" that hinders the Anti-Christ be taken out of the way.
A lot hinges on who this "he" of verse 7 is.
I believe this "he" is the Church.
The true Church is portrayed as the "body of Christ". What has been going on ever since that day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church has been a spiritual war. While the Church has never been in the majority numerically, it has been a spiritual influence that has had its effect on civilizations, and is still holding back the full impact of the forces of evil at the present time.
Prayer does work, when used.
Galveston1,
I think that your interpretation of "he" in that verse is a vast stretch.
Taking the Church (which will prevail even against the gates of hell) out of the way to reveal the wicked dose not make sense.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I believe if there is a rapture as we understand it with Jesus coming in the clouds is will not be pre trib. I believe many Christians are being lead to believe pre trib so they do not prepare for the end times because they will be magically removed before any real unendurable hardships happen to them.
I believe that when God says in Revelations about his people having a seal in the end times it will mean that we are protected and given special abilities to withstand the tribulation just as Daniel in the lions den and Shadrac, Meshak and Abendigo in the fiery furnace.
Christians now adays want an easy gospel and the Bible never promises that. It talks about martyr's crowns and warriors.
We have become lazy and materialistic to the point we are the foolish virgins the Bible warns about.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Also many people deceive themselves by saying we can not know when the end is near because of the last line but the Bible DOES say we WILL know the season and I believe we are very close to the tribulation, even to the point of already being in the very beginning of it.
N0help4u, Veru interesting observations you have.
But...
I still believe the bibles says that there will be but ONE return of Jesus Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes I believe Jesus will return but I don't think it will be quite what we expect or when we expect ---especially not the pre trib way.
N0help4u,
I suspect that you are right that Jesus' return may not be what we expect.
Fred
That has been a verrrrrry long 7 years, Fred!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred,
How could the tribuation period start back during World War I? Israel was not even a Nation. There is so much confusion on this topic. I am amazed!
classyT
It is just what I think because the "war to end all wars" was a terrible tribulation for the world.
Of Course WWII killed far more people and very brutally so.
They MAY not have been a part of the biblical tribulations for they sure enouph were tribulations.
I also believe that numbers mentioned in the bible are very often symbolic.
1000 means a lot, 5000 means a great many, 7 means a few; less than 1000.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yeah true the Bible does say that there will be false prophets, anti christs and many end time things before the actual end so you do have a good point there.
There have been many "tribulations", but only one called "The Tribulation", which is the term that you use in your last message.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I have found that history shows the Bible to be quite accurate in the timeframes prophecied.Quote:
I also believe that numbers mentioned in the bible are very often symbolic.
1000 means a lot, 5000 means a great many, 7 means a few; less than 1000.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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