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AmyMarie71 · Apr 21, 2011, 11:16 AM

I recently had a waterproofing crew in my basement and they blew-out a double 15amp breaker. They got an electrician out here and he pilled the double 15 out to see if he can get another one from a supply store. In the meantime, the GFI outlet that was connected to that 15 he doubled onto a 20 which has my microwave and toaster oven plugged into.

I was just recently told by the electrician that my panel is so old that they discontinued theinat breaker. My only option is to get a new panel (I have underground electric with a simple outside meter) but if I opt to wait for the total replacement, I should be fine with the GFI doubled-up on the 20amp.

Should I be concerned?

stanfortyman · Apr 21, 2011, 11:57 AM

They "blew" it out? Really? How? What exactly does this mean?

The rest of this is pretty confusing. Bottom line is, if the wiring was connected to a 15A breaker before it should NOT be connected to a 20 now.

donf · Apr 21, 2011, 12:33 PM

As Stan told you, should never mix a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp circuit together and leave it as a 20 amp circuit. That is a code violation and a fire hazard! That temporary circuit must be reduced to a 15 amp circuit as quickly as possible. The electrician should have know better. Also, unless your 20 amp GFCI breaker is listed for two conductors, that is also a code violation.

By the way, the "They" in the above description should be paying for the replacement breaker.

Just another thought, a new panel-box is readily available at Lowe's, Home Depot and a ton of electrical supplier shops. So are the breakers, I'm not sure why there would be a delay doing the work, unless his schedule is crowded.

Also, make sure this electrician is a licensed electrician and that he obtains the necessary permits prior to do any work. You might be wise to get a couple of bids on the work.

AmyMarie71 · Apr 21, 2011, 03:23 PM

It was a GFI outlet that was directly connected to a 15amp. The GFI is located right outside the panel box in the basement. The breaker was tripped and when looking inside the breaker when he removed it from the box, it was all grey and black showing it was blown. What they were running on it is not known. He then wired the GFI to a 20amp that already has an upstairs outlet wired to that breaker with a microwave and toaster oven on that outlet (along with a power strip so the strip would trip first).

The delay is due to the electrician telling me that the breakers are no longer available for my panel because it is so old.

donf · Apr 21, 2011, 04:24 PM

Amy,

Small world,my niece is named Amy Marie.

Regardless of the reason or the logic the electrician used in placing the conductor from the 15 amp circuit onto the 20 amp breaker, he violated the electrical code. The only correct way to fix that problem is to either replace the 15 amp breaker or move the circuit to another 15 amp breaker. That would still be a violation but it would remove the potential fire hazard you now have.

Can you read the manufacturer's name and model of the panelboard?

Can you take some pictures of the equipment and attach them to this thread using the "Advanced" tab below?

AmyMarie71 · Apr 21, 2011, 05:20 PM

Potential fire hazard? Now I am scared to death. The electrician that did that is coming over tomorrow to drop off the burnt breaker he took to see if he could order one. Since he told me they are no longer available and discontinued, I left him a voicemail telling him that the temporary hook-up he did with the outlet needs to be disconnected and removed until I decide what I want to do. I just hope he does it or I won't be able to sleep at night now.

hkstroud · Apr 21, 2011, 05:34 PM

The 15 amp circuit is only a hazard if it is being used. Do not use until corrected.

donf · Apr 21, 2011, 05:41 PM

Amy,

I apologize if I frightened you. My purpose was to alert you to a situation. It appears that I have done just that. Just to strongly.

Hank is 100% accurate with his response. As long as nothing on the 15 amp circuit is in use your system will be fine.

Are you using anything on that segment now?

hkstroud · Apr 21, 2011, 06:18 PM

If I am reading your post correctly you had a GFI outlet next to the circuit panel. That outlet was wired to a 15 amp double breaker, also called a twin, slim line, or 2-in1 breaker. This type breaker is designed to let you have two circuits in one space. There would have been two circuits on that breaker. The electrician move those circuits to a 20 amp breaker which has the microwave and toaster outlet on it.

If the electrician cannot find a replacement for the double 15 amp breaker have him put in two regular 15 amp breakers if another space is available. If another space is not available have him put in a regular 15 amp breaker to serve the other circuit that was on the double breaker and abandon the GFI outlet by the circuit box.

Nothing the basement water proofers could have done would have "blew out" the breaker. They could have, and probably did over load it but it should have simply tripped off. Stuff just happens.

If I opt to wait for the total replacement, I should be fine with the GFI doubled-up on the 20amp

If that statement was made by the electrician, get another electrician.

AmyMarie71 · Apr 21, 2011, 06:29 PM

I think I am getting confused here. There was a double 15amp breaker (2 within one removable unit) that blew. Only one of the 2 was being used and was directly wired to a GFI that was mounted outside of the panel on the wall in my basement. That one 15amp was blown so the electrician removed the whole breaker from the panel. There is now nothing there, just a space for a new breaker. He then wired the GFI that was originally on it's own 15amp (the one that blew) onto an existing 20amp which is also being used for an upstairs outlet for which my microwave and toaster oven are on. The toaster and microwave are on a power surge. Am I making anymore sense?

AmyMarie71 · Apr 21, 2011, 06:36 PM

This is exactly correct. The only problem now is that the electrician is saying that my panel is so old that the replacement breakers are discontinued and therefore, I need an upgrade which is definitely not in my budget now.

donf · Apr 21, 2011, 06:46 PM

Amy,

You are explaining yourself just fine.

The electrical code says that you cannot use a 15 amp circuit (14/2) wire on a 20 amp circuit

The conductors used for 1 20 amp circuit are 12/2 AWG and can safely handle the increased heat generated by the 20 amps.

14/2 conductors can safely handle 15 amps.

If the electrician only connected the one GFCI receptacle and nothing is plugged into that receptacle than you have a code violation because he mixed the conductors. If noting is connected to the receptacle then no current is flowing through the receptacle and you can relax and get a good nights sleep.

If you do have something plugged in and are using it, then just unplug whatever it is and relax.

Breakers come in several designs. A single breaker, a tandem breaker (one breaker that has room for two separate circuits), Slimline breakers, these are half the size of a single breaker and the slot on the panelboard can accommodate two slimline in the one slot.

Just curious, but where are you located? I'm in Virginia Beach, Va and its just about 10:00 PM here.

Just make sure that nothing is using the part of the circuit that is set for 15 amps and head to bed.

AmyMarie71 · Apr 21, 2011, 06:54 PM

The new GFI he put in shows it is working (the green light on in the corner) but nothing is plugged into it.
I'm located in Southeastern PA. I will make sure he removed it tomorrow when he gets here. Thanks for your patience!

hkstroud · Apr 21, 2011, 09:40 PM

If I understand correctly the electrician is saying a replacement double or tandem breaker is no longer available. He surely is not saying that regular breakers are not available. Replacing a circuit panel to simply add one more breaker space is an expensive under taking. There are other options available. One is to abandon the outlet by the panel and use a regular breaker for the other circuit that was connected to the double breaker. Another is to install a sub panel next to the existing circuit panel. Right now we don't even know if your present panel is full. Suggest you post the brand of the circuit panel and post a picture of it.

PS
Suggest that you have him return the breaker he took out.

AmyMarie71 · Apr 22, 2011, 06:55 AM

I do not have the capability to add a photo but the name is either "LINSCO" or "ZINSCO".. It is hard to read. I also do not see a main to the box at all. Looks like it is old and the only way to shut off the electric to the house would be to go down the line and shut off every-single breaker. I also have plenty of room in the panel for additional breakers if need be (at least 6).

hkstroud · Apr 22, 2011, 12:09 PM

Get your old breaker back, get the number off it and check out this web site.

Zinsco Circuit Breakers - Circuit Breakers

AmyMarie71 · Apr 26, 2011, 04:57 PM

Here is the lowdown. The electrician the waterproofers had come in replaced a GFI outside of the panel and used 12 gage (yellow) wire to hook it up to an existing 20amp circuit that is also being used for my microwave and toaster oven in the kitchen. For now, I am OK EXCEPT now there are 2 outlets near my kitchen sink that now do not work at all. I went downstairs and shut off all the 15 & 20amp breakers and then put them back on and the outlets still do not work. Ony one of the two is a GFI so I hit the test button to trip it and let it be.

Is this a fire hazard? I am curious because if it was, something would have happened by now (electrician was here last Monday, the 18th).

donf · Apr 27, 2011, 09:33 AM

When the electrician changed the wire to the GFCI receptacle from 14 gauge to 12 gauge he cleared the potential fire hazard.

However, unless the breaker is listed to handle two conductors, he committed another code violation.

Also, the circuits serving the appliance counter tops in the kitchen cannot be used to service other receptacles, such as a GFCI receptacle in the basement.

Is the electrician licensed? In my area of Virginia, we cannot modify a circuit or add a circuit without getting a permit and then having the work inspected.

I cannot tell you that your area is governed that tightly, but if you call the city - county - state electrical inspectors in your area, they can tell you what should have been done and what need to happen now.

AmyMarie71 · Apr 27, 2011, 10:01 AM

Yes, he is licensed. At this point, the new GFI in the basement is OK. My concern is that the outlets near my kitchen coutertop are now not working. According to the electrician, the 20amp breaker he connected the basement GFI to is also connected to an outlet for my microwave and toaster oven. The outlets that are now not working near the kitchen sink are supposedly not even on that breaker so that is why I am concerned.

I also shut off all the breakers and put them back on and that didn't work. That's why I am worried about a possible fire hazard now with the outlets near my kitchen sink not working, the basement GFI is OK.

donf · Apr 27, 2011, 10:51 AM

Amy,

Fire hazard should not be a concern for you.

Let me get the sequence of events clarified.

Before the waterproofing company showed up, all of the circuits were operating properly, correct?

While the waterproofing company was on-site, they damaged your electrical system by frying an breaker, correct? Did the kitchen outs fail when the initial problem occurred?

The waterproofing company calls in an electrician who promptly creates a potential fire hazard and violates several electrical codes, correct? Did the receptacles in the kitchen start to fail then?

Now the electrician has returned and changed the cable to the GFCI receptacle in the basement from a 14 AWG to a 12 AWG cable (which is correct for a 20 amp circuit), removed the potential fire hazard, but piggy-backed the cable to an existing 20 amp circuit that serves the counter-top receptacles, yet another code violation. Is it now that the receptacles in the kitchen started failing?

Personally, were I you, I would withhold payment to the waterproofing company until they correct all of the electrical problems they or a designated contractor (electrician) created for them.

I would also require that they make arrangements to have an electrical inspector from the "LAHJ" (Local Authority Having Jurisdiction) inspect the repairs and make sure they meet the code requirements.

Were I you, I would not allow them to hire an electrical inspector to do the inspection, I would require that the inspection be completed by the LAHJ after a description of the problems have been described to the inspector so that he/she knows what to look for.

But those are just my my suggestions.