[dustdevil]

I agree, there was, and still is a disconnect. You're right, the letter itself wasn't crap.

I wanted to hear more in her letter on why 'this will never work'. Since it felt to me that these were the steps

1) Wife leaves
2) Wife identifies problem
3) Wife doesn't give opportunity to address problems
4) Wife completely leaves

I felt the counseling was an opportunity to identify and work on problems, and we'd come out ahead. I felt it was crap because, and I asked her this, "Why do people go to counseling if it isn't to change?", and I also asked "What do you think people mean when they say that marriages take work".

I think she was just too far gone by the time therapy started, and she had already made up here mind. I also think she never did stop dating that other guy, and I think I'm being compared to him. Part of her decision was because last time we kissed, 'she didn't feel anything'.

Oh well.

[Gemini54]

I agree, there was, and still is a disconnect. You're right, the letter itself wasn't crap.

I wanted to hear more in her letter on why 'this will never work'. Since it felt to me that these were the steps

1) Wife leaves
2) Wife identifies problem
3) Wife doesn't give opportunity to address problems
4) Wife completely leaves

I felt the counseling was an opportunity to identify and work on problems, and we'd come out ahead. I felt it was crap because, and I asked her this, "Why do people go to counseling if it isn't to change?", and I also asked "What do you think people mean when they say that marriages take work".

I think she was just too far gone by the time therapy started, and she had already made up here mind. I also think she never did stop dating that other guy, and I think i'm being compared to him. Part of her decision was becasue last time we kissed, 'she didn't feel anything'.

Oh well.

People often use counselling to help them decide to separate rather than stay together... and you're right, counselling is often a last resort and people go too late.

It was too late, and I'm really sorry because I can see that you tried.

[talaniman]

This is not the end, but the beginning of a new chapter in your life. While I am sorry for your loss, its only temporary, and after acceptance and healing comes freedom from regrets.

[2ndTime]

You wife has decided to end the relationship with you because that's what she wanted to do from the beginning. She probably needed the confimation from the counseling to see if both of you were really compatible. From the most of the things you said, everything you said is almost like you were analyzing your marriage and didn't seem like you were in it (you wrote it like a third person). However, you did talk about some intimacy issues. You don't like to be spontaneous when it comes to sex, like an engineer set of mind. You don't know why that is. At this time, I agree with everyone that you should continue the counseling by yourself and figure out why you have the intimacy issue. I also agree with some people that your wife seems little spoiled and have some intimacy issue as well, but she will have to work on that herself. If at the end she doesn't come back to you, find someone else who is much like you.

[dustdevil]

Well. Decided to check on this 6 weeks later.

Still separated. She's holding off on the divorce until I get another job so that I can carry over my health insurance, but we're still going through with the divorce.

For some reason she begged to still be 'friends' after all this, which I can't see myself doing and refused, although I'll be more than friendly throughout the divorce stuff, but if I remained friends, I'd still try to get back with her, and couldn't respect myself.

I was crazy for the first 3 months that the separation was going on until I had closure. It occupied every thought of my waking mind. Wake up, think about it, sit in my computer chair and think about it all day, try to sleep and think about it. Now I hardly ever think about it unless I see her sign online or if she calls me to talk about the divorce business stuff.

I still cry occasionally. Probably once a week or two. If she comes by to pick up stuff, or I talk to her on the phone. I told her if she talks to me online, a part of me dies inside, but I don't have the heart to tell her to go away.

Been dating the last two weeks, and that's made me pretty happy. I'm pretty happy overall, making lots of new friends...

I guess the lesson learned from all of this, is that 'I need time and space' means they are cheating on you, and don't fool yourself by thinking that they'll stop.

[dustdevil]

Threads merged

I posted before. My wife and I had been separated for about 6 months. She lives an hour away at her parents house, and commutes to her work which is 5 minutes away from where I live. Contact between us is almost exclusively online IM, 1-3 times a week. Except for tonight, we haven't really seen each other in person for 4 months.

She wants to give it another try, but isn't comfortable with just 'moving back in'.

I'm wondering if there's a good intermediate step that can help the transition to getting her back home?

She feels there's still issues between us. They're communication issues, and we've talked online and on the phone endlessly about them and 'yes, I'll work on that', but I feel that there's no way to implement/show the change if you're not interacting face to face in a casual, everyday setting.

She said she's comfortable with doing 'date' like things. Like go to the store to get groceries together, or go to dinner, or go on walks, but she will definitely not visit the house.

I feel that these 'date' type things are inadequate for showing/implementing the change, as I'm going to be on my best behavior, and be kind of out of my element, 'dating' my wife, and I feel the only solution is for her to just move in...

Help?

P.S. She refuses to go to counseling. We did that for the first 5-6 weeks that she moved out, and I also feel that our lack of contact outside of counseling made it pretty useless.

[Cat1864]

First this will probably be merged with your previous thread: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marria...ts-402143.html.

DD, you mentioned in someone else's thread (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marria...ge-445166.html) that you suffer from sexomia. Have you been to the doctor for that (from previous research, I do know that it is treatable)? Is it another factor in your wife not wanting to live in the same house for right now?

I think IF you do continue on the path back to living together that you need to take it slow. BOTH of you need to agree that you are going to let the past rest in peace. Rebuild from the foundation up. Start at dating.

[dustdevil]

Sexsomnia is not a factor.

I mentioned sexsomnia to my sleep doctor, but it was nothing more than a curiosity. It doesn't really bother the wife. It only bothered her once when we didn't have sex for 3 weeks, and then I had sex in my sleep. She felt that my body wanted sex, just my mind didn't want sex with HER. I'm on testosterone treatment for that now... Sexsomnia has had no impact on our relationship or our situation. It's just a curiosity thing, since she accepts and knows that there's nothing I can do about it. (Except meds, but whatever, it happens every 2-8 weeks, not enough to be worried).

The majority of the time that we spend talking, she's just bringing up old stuff. So we should just drop all that talk, and then address issues in our relationship as they occur?

Part of me was concerned that the past stuff is seen as 'emotional trauma', and the only way to heal that stuff is to re-hash it as many times as possible until it no longer hurts.

I'm not sure which path to take. Talk or don't talk about the stuff.

The issues aren't major, just a collective bunch of minor things. Like sometimes my mind drifts, and I forget to hold the door for her or that I don't like tipping at every restaurant or that I make crude jokes sometimes... Nothing that I would really consider 'emotional trauma', but it's collectively this pile of stuff that she apparently needs to get past...

[Cat1864]

If I were talking to her, I would tell her to let the small stuff go. Write it out on slips of paper and burn them if it helps. Holding on to them is a way of keeping a distance between you and shows that there is something that she isn't dealing with. Whether it is between the two of you or buried deep in her mind and is associated with something not related to your relationship, I don't know.

Sometimes, it seems easier to build a wall than to tear it down. That's why I suggest both of you agreeing to start over from the dating stage as though you just met yesterday. It gives you both a chance to move past the old hurts and to show each other that there have been changes.

[artlady]

Does she want to be with you or her new improved version of what she wants you to be?

Improvement about communication is vitally important but nitpicking and judging every "flaw" she sees in you is counterproductive.

You need to both have realistic expectations of what you want from the marriage and what is doable and what are deal breakers.

Choose your battles wisely and have a clear plan of what your goals are as a couple.

[talaniman]

I see a big red flag when you reduce her concerns as something unimportant. That usually means your not listening very well, and what you see as a pile minor annoyances, is one big pile of do-do to her. Its serious enough for you to be separated for sure?

Don't make your eagerness to have your wife back make you overlook what she is actually telling you, or make promises you don't intend to keep.

Reestablishing honest communications has to have compromise and a willingness to work together. There are no short cuts or medium steps to take and get this done right.

I personally think your communications have to come first here, before you get back into the same rut that got you separated. Unfortunately your real problem is she doubts your change and wants to come home, but is fearful of the same thing again, plus she is probably getting family pressure also.

I think through this dating process you have to make her really believe you have changed, and its for real, and long lasting.

She must also do her part also, as its never a one sided story, and you both have to be willing to adjust to each other. You have your faults and they are many, but she has a few issues also.

You caving in to all her demands will not get her home, and keep her there.

[dustdevil]

Another update. Another month later, another level deeper into hell I go.

The wife and I had agreed to do 'date like things'. We went out to dinner a few times, went shopping together and she came over to my house and played video games. She even kissed me a few times.. Things looked great. We had a marriage counseling session scheduled and we both went, although she just went so that she could schedule her own therapy, which a month later, she still hasn't gone to yet. The conclusion from the session was that 'first things first' she needs to work on herself first before she can work on being in a relationship... The guy she left me for ended up knocking up his own wife, and my wife ended up breaking up with him about a month ago.. Things looked good for me.. She even took me out on my birthday..

After she had kissed me a few times on my birthday, I went to give her a bearhug. She never likes my bearhugs, and always says 'no', but I hugged her anyway. The next day in therapy, she tells the therapist I attacked her.. I was shocked. A few days later she said something to the effect that she doesn't feel safe around me alone. I don't even touch her unless she initiates something. I told her that if that's how she feels about me, then I don't want anything to do with her. She gave me a confusing answer, as she always does. Full of metaphors and vague ambiguous terms.. The conclusion at the end of that was that she wants us to continue what we were doing..

About 6 weeks ago, I told the wife that it will be ~6 months since I've had sex, and that I haven't been intimate with my girlfriend of 2 months yet, but once I hit that 6 month mark one way or the other I'm going to have sex again. I wanted to give her a choice on whether she wants to be the person I break my celibacy with... The wife seemed unwilling to help, so we left it at that. I've been having sex with my girlfriend since, and after the fact, my wife has told me that she is happy because now 'we're even', and that I can't hold me being the only faithful one above her head, and that she is relieved...

Well, as it turns out, my girlfriend, who's only had two partners in her life, the last one over two years ago, and she's a nurse, had a genital herpes 2 outbreak at the time we had sex, so lo and behold I now have herpes 2... I was devastated for a week. Things were going so well between me and my wife, I'm getting her into therapy, we're talking about action plans, and now this... I spent Valentines Day in the STD clinic getting tested. Fun times.

I was so scared about the impact this would have on my reconciliation attempts with my wife. We had two more dates planned, for my birthday and the day before. I hadn't gotten my test results yet, so I didn't want to say anything, but I had a pretty good idea that I had herpes. I just told my wife that I'm depressed over something I can't talk about, and tried to enjoy our dates as much as possible...

A few days later after the dates, I finally get the results, and I tell my wife. I told her I wanted to give her a few days to digest it, because I wanted to know if it was a dealbreaker for her, so I could spare myself the grief and move on, rather than find out later that it's a dealbreaker...

The wife seemed positive about it. She never gave me a straight answer on dealbreaker, but seemed to indicate that it wasn't. She never can answer yes or no questions with a straight answer and insults me for not understanding when I try to clarify. At first she felt guilty for putting me in the situation where I'd seek out sex from elsewhere, then she felt angry that I shouldn't have told her, because then if things don't work out, she thinks I'll blame it on the herpes...

Now my wife doesn't go online anymore and rarely answers her phone. I've kept all conversations for the last 2-3 weeks light and fairly short, just talking about how our week went, etc... When she does answer her phone, she doesn't sound upset, or like she's been avoiding me, but she never returns my voicemails, and the frequency at which she doesn't answer her phones has me believe that she is avoiding me..

I even told her a week or two ago that I was afraid that she was avoiding me, and she didn't indicate that she was, but I still have the nagging feeling.. I only try to call once or twice a week now.

I've spoken to my girlfriend about my situation, that I am still trying to get back with my wife, and she accepts my situation, she doesn't like it, but we still hang out and go on dates however I'm not very satisfied with that relationship... I find myself walking on eggshells, and even carefully selecting my words to be as positive as possible, she still manages to twist everything I say into something negative, and then get mad at me for it.. There's no satisfying this woman.. She's all right looking, but I wouldn't want her to mother my children. I guess I'm staying in this relationship because I can't in good faith enter into another one, and don't want to be alone, so we're just 'casual dating' now.

I live in the largest city in my state, and I've looked at the herpes dating sites, and there's not a lot of people to choose from on there... Whereas pre-herpes I bet I could have met someone as good or better than my wife, with the limited selection available for herpes dating, I realize that you're pretty much stuck with only a handful of people to choose from, good luck finding an 'ideal match'... My other friend who is 50 now got herpes when he was 18 from his first girlfriend, and never dated again... I'm terrified of not being able to find another relationship as good as the one I had with my wife...

[talaniman]

If your wife asked me for advice, I would be the one telling her to have nothing to do with you until she had finally gotten her act together.

Then she could see you for what you are, and make a choice. And that would hopefully be to leave you alone.

For you though, despite my sympathies at the beginning, I see you have taken the most destructive path possible, and are no where near the honest, trustworthy, person you need to be. Events have brought out the worst in you, and will get even worse, unless you get out of this selfish need for attention, and control, that is degrading you as a person.

To be specific is a girlfriend on the side who gives you herpes, and straight out lying to your wife, and using the girlfriend to manipulate your wife. This is totally unacceptable behavior, in my book.

You are disgusting, selfish, and dishonest, and blind to your own idiocy, that you can't see that your drowning in your own sh1t, instead of rising above a bad situation!

You have a long way to go, and a lot of work to do, to improve yourself, and be a fit partner for a horses a$$.

Sorry guy, even with therapy, your proving yourself to be the worst you can be.

[dustdevil]

?? I haven't lied to anyone. I started dating in good faith when my wife and I agreed to divorce. Three months after that decision I met my girlfriend. My wife comes back into the picture and changes her mind on divorce. I tell the girlfriend. My wife comes back a month later and changes her mind on divorce again, I tell the girlfriend.

I am remorseful for putting my girlfriend in a bad situation.

I started up on personal therapy again about 2 weeks ago, but I haven't figured out much to talk about there. If you could clarify a bit on my flaws you're seeing, I can bring that into Wednesdays session...

[talaniman]

Tell your therapist the truth, the whole truth, not just nit pick your flaws.

I am remorseful for putting my girlfriend in a bad situation.

But you keep her in the bad situation? That's not remorse, that's pure selfish, and honesty doesn't change that.

[dustdevil]

I think there might be some miscommunication.

When I told the girlfriend. I told her, we both have herpes, the dating scene is hard, I enjoy your company, if you enjoy my company, then we can spend time together instead of being alone, but I'm unable to offer more than that in terms of commitment, etc.


I felt bad for the situation that she ended up in, but I don't feel I did anything morally wrong. I can't control my heart. She asked me when we first started dating if I had feelings for my wife, and I said that I still do.

I'm not sure where you see that I lied to my wife.

I'll try to get more input on the attention and control from the therapist.. I wish she'd offer more criticism than just being a listening ear. Last discussions I've had with her about the wife three weeks ago we concluded that I need to stop the heavy talk and pressuring on the wife, and either not contact her, or if I do contact her, to just keep it light. Since I'm unable to bring myself to not contact her, I've been focusing my energy on maintaining conversations light. Talking about her sick cat mostly, with some talk about college, and hobbies. The last three weeks I haven't stepped outside of the bounds of light conversation, and every conversation was pleasant, and I ended the calls before they dragged on too long. The only 'control' that I've been imposing is just trying to contact her..

[talaniman]

Let me be clear then. You will never focus on what's really important with the distractions of a wife, girlfriend, and herpes. Does she know that she runs a risk if you do have sex?

[dustdevil]

How did I lie to my wife? Just to be clear, my girlfriend is the one who gave me herpes.

Yes. We talked about treatment options. Statistics per year of transmitting it with various treatments/methods. How it can affect childbirth, etc. 8% chance with nothing. 4% chance on antivirals, 2% chance per year with antivirals and condoms. Luckily we live a few miles away from one of the top herpes centers in the country where they do the trials of the new vaccines and other treatment.

Wife finally returned my voicemail today on her lunch. She was out in the woods all weekend. I had a 104.2F (40.1C) fever on Friday and tried calling her over the weekend to discuss health issues.

I still have no idea what the really important issues are to focus on. My life consists of job hunting, hobbies, friends and 1-3 times a week having a brief conversation with my wife at night.

While I'm sure your advice makes sense to you, it doesn't compute with me. I appreciate the help, but most of the advice I get seems like fortune cookie speak. Proper relationship behavior and marriage issues might be second nature to you, but until we turned into adults, my wife and I were both social outcasts, myself living with a single mother, they don't teach long term relationship dynamics in school, so I'm not the most well-informed person.