[talaniman]

Why should you care what people choose to believe? It's a personal thing. You live your life and let others live theirs.

That was my reply. The relationship with the God I understand is personal, and no religion, person, or object, can come between that relationship. That's my choice. Your choice may be different, but that's all good, if your okay with it, so am I.:)

[margarita_momma]

- i once asked him why he takes all the credit for everything good in his life instead of thanking and praising god - akin to you, he said he didn't believe! - i said i accept this, but what has he got to lose, especially where his daughter is concerned?

What you don't understand about most non-believers is it really isn't a CHOICE to not believe in a god. Most simply just can't do it. I would love to believe in a super invisible man in the sky that helps you out if you get into a bind but it is just too far fetched for me. I honestly can not see myself getting down on my knees and praying to something I can never see myself believing in.

Like the guy you are speaking of... let's say hypothetically there is a god and he prayed to it because you told him it would be a good thing to do for his daughter. If he is a non-believer, he isn't going to be sincere.

The last line seem like you are trying to push him into a guilt trip by telling him his daughter's life is at stake unless he prays to your god. That is horrible!

[jillianleab]

Ok, you've said and asked a lot in both of your posts, and I want to fully address them both.

if we presume for a moment that you are correct, and strength or any other facility comes from you and you alone - what happens when you fail? - i know a an extremely intelligent person with numerous degrees who has built numerous successful companies and acquired mega wealth - despite these strengths, his daughter is STILL dying of an unknown disease and he blames himself not for the disease, but because despite all his power, all his money, all his resources, all his strength - he cannot help her - i once asked him why he takes all the credit for everything good in his life instead of thanking and praising god - akin to you, he said he didn't believe! - i said i accept this, but what has he got to lose, especially where his daughter is concerned? - i asked him if there WAS a god, would he be willing to risk her life by purposely NOT taking the risk of getting down on his knees and asking for mercy for his daughter? - i said you say you have done everything you could for her, but your really haven't done EVERYTHING! - i said you need not believe - but if there is a god, he surely believes in YOU and if this IS a test are you willing to give up your daughter's life to prove a point? - even if i COULD do EVERYTHING myself and didn't NEED anyone's help for anything - why would i WANT to live that way?
we are a social people and if there is anything out there remotely that would willingly share the burden, i'd be inclined to at least see what it's all about.
thank you for listening!

To begin, you are making the presumption (and a rather rude one) that if someone is highly educated they should believe in god, thus people who do not believe in god are less intelligent. This school of thought is frequently flipped, actually, but it's not one I subscribe to.

Anyway, what happens when I fail? Well, depends on what you mean by "fail". In the instance of your friend, I don't think he has "failed". He is not in control of his daughter's health, at least to the extent that he can make it go away. It is not his fault, or his failing that his daughter is sick, it's simply life. Bad things happen and you can't always prevent them. He feels guilty because he can't make it go away with his money, which is a foolish line of thinking, in my opinion. But anyway...

I consider something I did as a failure when I don't live up to what I know I'm capable of doing. When I fail myself and the one's I love in situations I can directly have an effect on. I have failed if I spend all the money I have on worthless crap and can't afford to buy my kids (if I had them) food and clothing. I have not failed if one of my kids (again, if I had them) is diagnosed with leukemia and dies.

And I agree with margarita_momma that it's horrible you are trying to guilt trip your friend into believing in god and using his daughter's misfortune to do so. Shame on you. Do you not realize bad things happen to people of faith as well? And let's say your friend is guilt tripped enough that he decides he's going to try this prayer thing, and he prays and prays, and goes to church, and gets others to pray, and his daughter still dies; don't you think he's going to hold some animosity toward you and toward god, since his prayer didn't work? Since you've implied if he believed in god this wouldn't have happened? Seriously, shame on you, that's a terrible, terrible thing to do to a person.

Further, I agree with margarita_momma that you don't understand why people don't believe. It's not because we hate god, or hate religion, or we think we are superior (well, surely some do it for that reason) but for many of us, it's because we can't. I can't believe in god, it makes absolutely no sense to me. My brain hears "god" and it automatically says, "Nope, sorry, we don't buy that one." My brain has always been like that, from the time I was a child, so it has nothing to do with being older or jaded or whatever. Some people are born with faith, other's aren't. I wasn't.

Lastly, why would you want to live a life where you manage everything on your own? One word - independence. I've said this in other threads; when something goes right in my life, I get to take credit. I don't have to share that joy or accomplishment with anyone else, it's all for me. Likewise, when I do something wrong, the guilt, the blame, the bad feelings, those are all mine too. I must carry the burdens, and I must work my way out of it. That's why I strive to do well, and when I screw up, I work toward making it better. You get to share your burden with god, I don't. But you have to share your joys with god. I don't, I know it was me, my effort that did it, and I like it that way. In my opinion it makes me a better and more responsible person because I'm accountable for every action.

PS: It's also disgusting you think your god would punish your friend's daughter with illness simply because he doesn't believe.

[jillianleab]

Round two, and please bear with me, as I'm not Jewish.

one last comment on this - i do not fault anyone for not believing - whether it is in god or anything else - that's their choice and i accept and respect them for it - i only take exception when a choice is made in ignorance - i know an elderly jewish woman who feels life starts and stops with the old testament. seems to me, that the old testament is akin to that of high school; whereas the new testament may be likened to that of additional (not superior or better, just "more") education such as college and/or graduate school, etc.
i had to ask: why is it that many people read JUST the old testament / go to high school and then STOP? they KNOW that education continues PAST high school, just as they KNOW the bible continues with the new testament - do you suppose people are SO presumptuous as to think they've learned EVERYTHING they ever needed or will ever need in high school and they have no NEED to learn anything else? wouldn't one consider that just a tad short sighted? likewise, why would anyone just read the old testament and STOP? do they too presume it is all inclusive and they have nothing ever left to learn?
I tend to postulate, that people are just to frightened of what they "might" read, or might learn, or might think! I think that, in truth, people are so scared to have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that even in the slightest of ways would not MAKE them, but ENABLE then to perceive something differently than what they're used to. I find that sad, really, to be so frightened about what one might learn and how that learning may affect one's current opinions that one would completely disregard that education as useless and irrelevant! it's almost childlike in the way they "KNOW" they won't like something before they even taste it! usually by the time we're 20, we've been subject to so many conflicting opinions about so many things that in truth, we don't know WHAT we believe - we know what OTHER people believe - we know what other people WANT us to believe - but how many of us an honestly say we've really taken the time to examine our beliefs and see if they are in fact OUR beliefs and how they stack up in a practical sense? - all i'm suggesting, is that one educates themselves to the extent possible before deciding to accept ANY belief on ANY subject.

You say you don't understand why someone would read the OT and just stop - did you ever consider that it's because they've gotten everything they need from that book? That to them, there is nothing else left to learn; the OT is it, it make sense, it's the one. To use your school/education example: perhaps your Jewish lady friend thinks of the OT as the best high school education out there on par with a Master's from Harvard, and the NT is one of those bogus pay-a-fortune-for-it degrees.

But here's a thought for you as well; why have you read the bible and stopped? Have you read every religious text out there? Have you gathered all of your education so you may learn as much as you can about your superior being?

But whatever. We're off topic.

[hic1957]

First - everyone who answered - please accept my apologies! My comments were not intended to ruffle any feathers - it was never my intention to try and guilt anyone into believing anything - fortunately, this gentlemen saw past my poor choice of words through to my intention of wanting to try and offer him a method for being less depressed. And we're still friends! You all have made some excellent observations and comments - you have all given me a lot more to think about and digest - I'm going to think very seriously about all of your comments and hope to respond in a day or two - please forgive my impulsiveness. Thanks for letting me share - will respond again soon!

[jillianleab]

Not a problem, hic. I'm glad to hear your comments to your friend (and here) were made of impulse not cruelty or superiority. I'm also glad to hear you are giving thought to the things that have been said; it's always nice when someone with a differing opinion does that, even if in the end we still disagree!

[Love-Life]

I don't believe in religion either, I believe in my kids, I believe in myself, I believe in the good of other people, I believe that some people are toxic and I should keep clear of them, I believe a good game of hockey makes me feel great, I believe that napping is underrated, etc.

Yes exactly. I believe in the good things we can have in our lives without the need of a Religion telling us what is right or wrong.

[Love-Life]

well that is your own personal choice. one day when you are burning in hell, perhaps you will believe in hell then.

What is that supossed to be funny? Haha. A six year old could come up with that remark. If I don't believe in God I obviously don't believe in hell. But good effort on attempting to be clever. I don't judge people for having a religion until they start judging me because I don't. You are a prime example of that.

[jillianleab]

letmetellu disagrees: All I can say is that your day will come.

Well that was very rude of you. I express my opinion, I tell you I think it's great that you found god, but you still can't manage to accept that I feel differently. Instead, you decide to implicate that I will be condemned to hell because I disagree with your point of view. You obviously have no respect for other people's opinions, only for people who are like you. And here I thought your religion was supposed to teach tolerance and being non-judgemental.

Another angry Christian who has yet to realize you catch more flies with honey...