[Gwen1212]

We all have a choice in life, its up to you if you enter the Kingdom.
God is love, that all that manners.

[Wondergirl]

Okay. But it certainly shows that it's not just "your" Church (as you said to De Maria), very disapprovingly. Do you feel Luther was mistaken to favor the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? If so, why?

Very disapprovingly?? I'm trying to understand the various facets of something here.

Luther was born into a Catholic family, was a Catholic monk for 16 years, had had no intention of leaving the Catholic Church when he nailed up his 95 Theses. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which had been established as a universal feast in 1476 by Pope Sixtus IV, was part and parcel of Luther's beliefs. It was part of his being like any teaching one grows up with and has unquestioningly accepted is part of one's being.

In contrast, I grew up with and unquestioningly accepted the teaching that Mary was not immaculate, was not sinless. I'm hearing the Catholic Church's reasoning behind it, but have not yet been convinced, especially since the Immaculate Conception is not mentioned at all in the Bible.

Was Luther mistaken? I don't think that's the right question.

[Akoue]

Very disapprovingly???? I'm trying to learn something here.

So I misunderstood, then? Okay, so much the better. So do you think Luther was mistaken?

[arcura]

Wondergirl.
That's great news.
I hope you are learning something here.
I have been learning ever since I came to askmehelpdesk.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

So I misunderstood, then? Okay, so much the better. So do you think Luther was mistaken?

I just found out I can't write, edit, post, reread my post, and edit...

Was Luther mistaken? I don't think that's the right question.

[Akoue]

I just found out I can't write, edit, post, reread my post, and edit...

I know the feeling.

Was Luther mistaken? I don't think that's the right question.

I don't know what the right question is. That's just the one I was asking. I'm interested to know what you think about this.

Edit for clarity: Was Luther mistaken to have favored the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

[JoeT777]

No, you didn't.

I have always believed Jesus' birth was pure and sinless, immaculate. I do not agree that Mary "had to be" immaculate. I had told you back then that that belief diminishes God's power. It always seemed to me that one of the major points of the Christmas story was that God honored a lowly, sinful, human virgin as the mother of His Son. What a wonderful example of God's desire to reach out to each of us in our own humanity!

And then I wondered why would the immaculateness stop with Mary. Why wasn't her mother immaculate--and her mother--and her mother...all the way back to Eve?

Mary was made sinless, protected from original sin, "By a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ" she is protected from sin. She was “full” of grace. Like a container, every void was filled with grace. (Cf. Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 1854)
Obtained by the grace God. That Mary was the “new” Eve, made righteous, Blessed among women . (Cf. Luke 1:42)

"[I embrace] the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
Eve…”having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.” St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 22

And remembering that salvation includes being risen, body and soul, into heaven we see why many believe in the Assumption of Mary into heaven.

Irenaeus goes on to say,”… also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.” St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 22, 4

St. Jerome adds that, “In those days, as I have said, the virtue of continence was found only in men: Eve still continued to travail with children. But now that a virgin has conceived (Isaiah 7:14) in the womb and has borne to us a child of which the prophet says that Government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called the mighty God, the everlasting Father, (Isaiah 9:6) now the chain of the curse is broken. Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary. And thus the gift of virginity has been bestowed most richly upon women, seeing that it has had its beginning from a woman. As soon as the Son of God set foot upon the earth, He formed for Himself a new household there; that, as He was adored by angels in heaven, angels might serve Him also on earth.” St. Jerome, Epistle 22, par. 21

In my opinion this best describes the new Eve. At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143 (CCC, 494)

See also my comments in the thread “The Immaculate Conception.” It’s my recollection you objected then too. Does an immaculate Mary scare you?

JoeT

[cozyk]

I am Sooooooo Confused!!

Do these differences really matter? Am I going to be afraid I ask?
Oh boy...

[Akoue]

I am Sooooooo Confused!!!!

Do these differences really matter? Am I going to be afraid I ask?
Oh boy..................

Lol! Fair enough. Where did we lose you? Are there specific questions that you have or is it more like, "What the &*ck are these people talking about?!"

[arcura]

CozyK,'
Yes they really matter to a great many people.
But don't be afraid. Just do as wondergirl and I do... learn
Peace and kindness.
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Edit for clarity: Was Luther mistaken to have favored the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

As I had posted earlier --

Luther was born into a Catholic family, was a Catholic monk for 16 years, had had no intention of leaving the Catholic Church when he nailed up his 95 Theses. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which had been established as a universal feast in 1476 by Pope Sixtus IV, was part and parcel of Luther's beliefs. It was part of his being like any teaching one grows up with and has unquestioningly accepted.

In contrast, I grew up with and unquestioningly accepted the teaching that Mary was not immaculate, was not sinless. I'm hearing the Catholic Church's reasoning behind it, but have not yet been convinced, especially since the Immaculate Conception is not mentioned at all in the Bible.

Was Luther mistaken? It was in his bones and blood. I cannot condemn him for believing it.

[cozyk]

Lol! Fair enough. Where did we lose you? Are there specific questions that you have or is it more like, "What the &*ck are these people talking about?!"

It's more like "What the @#$% are they talking about?" Maybe since I know nothing about Catholics or Lutherans it contributes to my confusion. The only thing I know about Catholics is that where I grew up (South Carolina) there was maybe 3 Catholics in the whole town. When I lived in Philadelphia, I was probably one of 3 that was not Catholic.

Fred, It hasn't mattered to me before and it still does not matter. I think a lot of energy is spent on arguing details that are not important. The big picture people, concentrate on the big picture.:)

[Wondergirl]

Enoch, Elijah, children who die in the womb, children who die before the age of reason. Even adults who never achieve the age of reason before they die.

RE: sinlessness. That I do not agree with.

[Akoue]

As I had posted earlier --

Luther was born into a Catholic family, was a Catholic monk for 16 years, had had no intention of leaving the Catholic Church when he nailed up his 95 Theses. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which had been established as a universal feast in 1476 by Pope Sixtus IV, was part and parcel of Luther's beliefs. It was part of his being like any teaching one grows up with and has unquestioningly accepted.

Well, conditioning doesn't explain it, since he was willing to reject lots of other Catholic doctrines with which he had lived all his life. He chose to reject Papal primacy; he chose to retain the Immaculate Conception.

In contrast, I grew up with and unquestioningly accepted the teaching that Mary was not immaculate, was not sinless. I'm hearing the Catholic Church's reasoning behind it, but have not yet been convinced, especially since the Immaculate Conception is not mentioned at all in the Bible.

Well, lots of stuff isn't mentioned in the Bible. Lots of stuff that is true. One thing that is in the Bible is that Mary is "full of grace" (Joe brought this up).

Was Luther mistaken? It was in his bones and blood. I cannot condemn him for believing it.

Goodness, no, I really wasn't trying to get you to condemn him for it. I want to understand why you think he was mistaken to believe it.

[Wondergirl]

Does an immaculate Mary scare you?

What an odd question!

As I said back on #108, "I have always believed Jesus' birth was pure and sinless, immaculate. I do not agree that Mary "had to be" immaculate.... It always seemed to me that one of the major points of the Christmas story was that God honored a lowly, sinful, human virgin as the mother of His Son. What a wonderful example of God's desire to reach out to each of us in our own humanity!"

[JoeT777]

Luther was born into a Catholic family, was a Catholic monk for 16 years, had had no intention of leaving the Catholic Church when he nailed up his 95 Theses.

If you think Martin Luther didn't intend to separate from the Church, think again.

The Protestant draft of the Confession was rejected by Emperor Charles V in September 1530. Some considerable time was given by the Emperor for the Protestants to consider a rejoinder more in keeping with Rome. A confidant of Luther, Philip Melanchthon, wrote a response which was immediately rejected. Luther, knowing that continued resistance would be a schism, defiantly wrote to the Emperor in his response, “The Augsburg Confession must endure…Not even an angel from Heaven could alter a syllable of it, and any angel who dared to do so must be accursed and damned. Still less might Emperor, Popes, or bishops sit in judgment on it. The stipulations made that monks and nuns still dwelling in their cloisters should not be expelled, and that the Mass should not be abolished, could not be accepted; for whoever acts against conscience simply paves his way to Hell. The monastic life and the Mass covered with infamous ignominy the merit and suffering of Christ. Of all the horrors and abominations that could be mentioned, the Mass was the greatest.“ In our liberal world of today, even this would be taken as open defiance.


Luther was open about his motives to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. We do know that on March 7, 1522, while in Wittenberg, Luther went into a long diatribe against the Church and Pope Leo X in particular. Luther called him “a nit which has not yet turned into a louse, a brat whose father was a bug, a donkey who wants to read the psalter…a sacrilegious murderer…a chosen tool of the Devil, a papistical sea-serpent, a blackhead and a bad as the worst rogues whom indeed he outrivals, an abortion of a fool, an limb of Satan.” I'd say it was a bit impolite. But as to his motive, Luther wrote, “If I succeed in doing away with the Mass, then I shall believe I have completely conquered the Pope. On the Mass, as on a rock, the whole of the Papacy is based, with its monasteries, bishoprics, colleges, altars, services and doctrines… If the sacrilegious and cursed custom of the Mass is overthrown, then the whole must fall.” Now, this seems to me to be a political movement aimed at bringing Christ's Kingdom down. (Source: Warren H. Carroll, The Cleaving of Christendom, 2000.)


But that defiance was present as early as 1518. In a letter to Jodocus Trutfetter, a former professor, Martin Luther exhibited his commitment to the destruction of the Church. He wrote, “To speak plainly, my firm belief is that reform of the Church is impossible unless the ecclesiastical laws, the papal regulations, scholastic theology, philosophy and logic as they at present exist, are thoroughly uprooted….a resolution from which neither your authority, although it is certainly of greatest weight for me…” (Source: Warren H. Carroll, The Cleaving of Christendom, 2000.)


We don't see a hapless stooge being surreptitiously led around by the nose. Rather we see a recalcitrant schismatic who knows the results of his deeds. The religious war that followed at Zurich in 1531 lasted for nearly 117 years. Luther was the first of among the elitist leading the proletariat in what was to become history's fist “Revolution” replacing God's perfect law with man's subjective and fallible law.

In Luther's words, when referring to the Catholic Church it means “These things are clearer than the light to all men; and the Church of Rome, formerly the most holy of all Churches, has become the most lawless den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the very kingdom of sin, death, and hell; so that not even antichrist, if he were to come, could devise any addition to its wickedness.” What great respect, so much so, that he was just looking for a way to reform the Church, right?

This is the type of theological genius we can expect from Martin Luther “I cannot get over the blindness of the Pope's theologians. To imagine that the mighty forces of sin, death, and the curse can be vanquished by the righteousness of man's paltry works, by fasting, pilgrimages, masses, vows, and such gewgaws. These blind leaders of the blind turn the poor people over to the mercy of sin, death, and the devil. What chance has a defenseless human creature against these powers of darkness? They train sinners who are ten times worse than any thief, **ore, murderer. The divine power of God alone can destroy sin and death, and create righteousness and life. " (Martin Luther, Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians, 1535)


Indeed, Martin Luther thought he could bring down the Kingdom of God, the Roman Catholic Church. But, not only will it prevail against the gates of hell, it also prevailed against Luther.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

If you think Martin Luther didn’t intend to separate from the Church, think again.

I don't agree. Luther loved the Church. If you read all that you posted more carefully, you will see what I mean. Luther loved the Church (who wouldn't - so much grace and beauty!), but he hated what he saw as injustices being committed by greedy people in charge.

[Akoue]

I don't agree. Luther loved the Church. If you read all that you posted more carefully, you will see what I mean. Luther loved the Church (who wouldn't - so much grace and beauty!), but he hated what he saw as injustices being committed by greedy people in charge.

Well, actually, as Heiko Oberman has shown, Luther (and other German members of his very small order) disliked Italians and other "swarthy" Mediterraneans. And this well before his later years, when even his wife told him to tone down the rhetoric. There's a ton of documentary evidence that he didn't like these people coming into Germany and telling good Germans what to do. A lot of the work done on this has been done by Lutheran historians.

[Athos]

Does an immaculate Mary scare you?

JoeT

Why would you say that, Joe? Wondergirl is simply questioning the doctrine. As she wrote, she was brought up without that being part of her religious upbringing. Do you expect her to jump on the Catholic bandwagon because you and others believe it?

When you offer as a proof (or support) that Mary was "full of grace" and therefore sinless, this strikes me as stretching a phrase to a place it was never intended to go. Whether Mary was or wasn't this or that strikes me as minutiae. The story of Mary is a lovely one and a big part of Christian culture but not worth getting insulting about.

My only objection to Protestants on this Mary issue is when some misrepresent Catholic belief (that she is worshipped as if she were God). After all Catholics ought to know what they believe.

[Wondergirl]

The big picture people, concentrate on the big picture.:)

I think all of us (arcura, akoue, Athos, Joe, De Maria) agree on that. God loves us unconditionally, and, in turn, our response is to not only love God in return but also love others unconditionally.