[Tj3]

Yes, He PAID the price. And he will cleanse the soul in purgatory so that no sin enters heaven and so that we can be presented to the Father flawless.

That is what you say, but not what scripture says:

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

The blood shed on the cross cleanses us, not suffering in purgatory.

[arcura]

Joe,
You are right.
The original question was "Why is there a belief in Purgatory" and that has been answered here several ways.
There are a great many others Catholic and more that believe in the existence of Purgatory.
Frankly I'm glad there there is such a place to make us completely pure so that we can dwell in God's heavenly kingdom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Frankly I'm glad there there is such a place to make us completely pure so that we can dwell in God's heavenly kingdom.

I thanks God that He said that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord, and that we are cleansed and purified through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. There is no need for any Christian to spend time in a fiery punishment.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Who said that Purgatory is a place of fire.
Our sinful nature is cleaned AS THOUGH it was done by fire.
The people mentioned in the bible who were in purgatory were not described as though they were burning.

[Nestorian]

Fair enough. So Jessus died protecting us?

Wouldn't it make sense that we are all innocent then? If GOD truly knows us all and Knows ALL, then he knows why we all did what we did, why we think, feel, act and generally behave the way we do. Especailly since he created us! Haha, so he knows what we will do, how we will do it, and there for forgave us all before we ever even existed.

I mean really, "he" (I use this term loosely, I don't think GOD is of gender, nor of entity, more of everything that is. Like the force in star wars. Key word "LIKE") made us, knowing everything we'd ever do. There for, he created us to do what is is we do, no matter what we "choose". So, do we have free will? Or are we a product of "his" creation and therefor subject to do what "he" created us for?

Why have a pergatory, and where, what is pergatory?

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Who said that Purgatory is a place of fire.
Our sinful nature is cleaned AS THOUGH it was done by fire.

Scripture says that our sinful nature is cleansed by the blood on the cross. If you want to keep telling us this, why not post some scriptural validation?

[Tj3]

Fair enough. So Jessus died protecting us?

He died on the cross paying the price for our sins.

Wouldn't it make sense that we are all innocent then? If GOD truly knows us all and Knows ALL, then he knows why we all did what we did, why we think, feel, act and generally behave the way we do. Especailly since he created us! Haha, so he knows what we will do, how we will do it, and there for forgave us all before we ever even existed.

God gave us freewill. When you are given a gift, you have the option to accept it, or reject it. The same is true here. Jesus paid the price, and you have the choice to accept it, or reject it.

Why have a pergatory, and where, what is pergatory?

There is no purgatory.

[Nestorian]

He died on the cross paying the price for our sins.



God gave us freewill. When you are given a gift, you have the option to accept it, or reject it. The same is true here. Jesus paid the price, and you have the choice to accept it, or reject it.



There is no purgatory.

You may have missed my point, I know it's my choice to accept or decline my "free will", but if we were created by GOD, and he knew what we'd do to start with, then is it really free will, if he knew?

He made us who we are, everything that we do is dictated by our brains no? SOme of us can resist behaving in some way or another, but what about some one with say a mental illness, like Bipolar? GOD made that person with Bipolar, and now they behave irradically, and possibly kill some one, while on a manic high. Not even realising what they are doing... Tell me then, is that person to be blamed for their sin?

[arcura]

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.
A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.

[Nestorian]

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.
A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.

But all things are open to interpretation, on account that we have a free will and all...

[arcura]

Nestorian.
Even though God know all past, present and future He does not interfere with our free will.
Yes He knows what our future will be, but we do not.
It us we who decides what our future will be not God,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Nestorian]

Nestorian.
Even though God know all past, present and future He does not interfere with our free will.
Yes He knows what our future will be, but we do not.
It us we who decides what our future will be not God,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Are you sure about that? Because I'm almost sure, that some one born with a disability, or that gets cancer, or develops some kind of mental illness due to genetics is not a personal prefrence, nor choice...

We make choices baised upon what we are, we have needs, and baised upon those needs we react. Choice thoery, by William Glasser.

1)Physical needs, such as water, food, shelter, etc.

2)Belonging/ love, such as being apart of some kind of social circle/ family/ loved ones.

3)Freedom/ responsibility, self explanitory.

4)Power/ significants, once again self explainitory.

5)FUN, self explainitory.

These are the needs that generally have to be met for us to enjoy life. IF GOD created us, then a man/ women who is mentaly ill and thinks they see demons in people and kills countless people, as I'm sure this has happened before though I can not recall any specifics, to protect us and themselves from these "demons"; then tell me, where is the free will.

To say that they could logically say, well deomons don't exsist, or that it's not right to hurt people, is a little lame. That would be like me telling you that a big freeking truck coming at you full speed won't hurt you, it's not real. You'd be blindfolded, and staning in front of it. But the truck would past you harmlessly by, if you didn't move, if you did, you'd have a fifty/ fifty chance of survival. See my point. You don't know, but GOD did, does, Will. GOD would have had to KNown what you'd do when you'd do it, then created you to act just as you do. We are not able to simply ignore our biological funtions, that takes training, and time.

I don't think GOD knows, knew all. Other wise that would violate the idea of Free will. No? Unless you have some secret power to manipulate the world around you that we don't know about, then I'm sure you are like most and are a product of both Nature, and nurture. Biological responses, and cognitive figured responses. Eh?

I'm not entirely sure we have free will, if we need to react in specific ways to sufice our feelings of anxiety or fear so we can feel comfortable... Think about it, you're going to defend your belief for what ever reason, but you feel a need to do so, for what ever that reason is.

“Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.”-yoda
Forgive me if it seems odd, but how is this any different form your beliefs in GOD? Pergatory, heaven, hell, and earth..?

[Tj3]

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.

Where are they?

A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.

Fred, you are changing you claim about purgatory again. Previously you said that it purified or cleansed the person's sin nature. Now you say that it burns up the person's work's. Not only does this not have anything to say about purgatory, you are being inconsistent in your argument as to what purgatory is.

[sndbay]

But you didn't answer the question; "Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'"

Those are man's words which led to deception. I have offered God's promise and His Words of Truth.

It is not that I avoid the question, but I avoid the doubt that lies within the question, and in all that Christ flesh has offers us.

I can tell you again, being born again purified of the soul through the Holy Spirit in love for The Word which is Christ.


Here is His Fire..

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


And this word fire goes on to reference his power to purge the floor where God resides within us.

17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Do you Believe His Words?

Are you baptized as The Word has shown, and as Christ ensampled?

Many are not... they have followed man

[Tj3]

You may have missed my point, i know it's my choice to accept or decline my "free will", but if we were created by GOD, and he knew what we'd do to start with, then is it really free will, if he knew?

I saw it, and tried to address it in my last post. The point is that foreknowledge does not mean that God has removed your freewill. Even though He knew, you still have the ability to do as you will.

He made us who we are, everything that we do is dictated by our brains no? SOme of us can resist behaving in some way or another, but what about some one with say a mental illness, like Bipolar? GOD made that person with Bipolar, and now they behave irradically, and possibly kill some one, while on a manic high. Not even realising what they are doing...

Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill. That is not God's doing. On the other hand, what is God's doing is to provide a way to be freed by the enslavement to sin and to be freed from the impact of sin, which is eternity in hell.

[sndbay]

Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

That fire is done in baptism... That fire remains within us that are baptized.... He that suffers loss, is to suffer in fullfillment just as Christ did. And yes ye are saved, and by perservance of fire.. The fire which burns all that comes by the sins of flesh, where the Holy Spirit resides within you.

Those that believe in Christ can be baptized.... suffer to fulfillment of righteousness as Christ did. WE drink of His blood that was shed for us in rememberance of all that is possible in Christ.


~in Christ

[sndbay]

Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Also Luke 3:9)

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


If one can not believe that all things are possible in Christ Jesus .... they are left with fire which is found to destroy satan's deception

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...

Then you are left with satan... in torment as shown by the scripture written

. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

[JoeT777]

Those are man's words which led to deception. I have offered God's promise and His Words of Truth.

Not just any man's words. It was the words of our former Pope John Paul II.

It is not that I avoid the question, but I avoid the doubt that lies within the question, and in all that Christ flesh has offers us.

So, if you're unwilling to answer this simple question, then I guess I can take your previous comments as little more than debate rhetoric? Apparently you don't intend to answer any questions candidly, rather skillfully like a good propagandist?

I can tell you again, being born again purified of the soul through the Holy Spirit in love for The Word which is Christ.

I can tell you that it's once saved, always saved is deceiving and not normally found. Everybody, from day to day, falls short of the Glory of God.

Here is His Fire..

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

And this word fire goes on to reference his power to purge the floor where God resides within us.


17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

But, do these verses contend you will be perfect, without blemish, for the rest of your journey of life?

There's that word again, 'purge'.

Do you Believe His Words?

Yes, as taught by the Magisterium in harmony with Tradition and Scripture.

Are you baptized as The Word has shown, and as Christ ensampled?

Yes, I was baptized as an infant.

Many are not... they have followed man

Agreed many don't, and those like Jan Hus, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and others, will find that they built their foundations on a crust of fragipan, not Christ.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Not just any man’s words. It was the words of our former Pope John Paul II.

That may mean something in your denomination, but that does not mean anything to me.

[Nestorian]

I saw it, and tried to address it in my last post. The point is that foreknowledge does not mean that God has removed your freewill. Even though He knew, you still have the ability to do as you will.



Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill. That is not God's doing. On the other hand, what is God's doing is to provide a way to be freed by the enslavement to sin and to be freed from the impact of sin, which is eternity in hell.

Are you saying that GOD, who created me, you and all. Who knows all, simply made us to live our lives our way?

But he created us with needs!! Five as far as choice thoery goes, and that is something any one could see. Other wise, why do people need to talk to one aother, why even be apart of society, the very society that is changing our planet! We feel the need of greed, and sad to say, but we are all subject to these needs, some times we can resist, but very few indeed. I mean really how smart is it to cut down as many trees as we do, dig up as many mines as we do for raw matierials? We NEED those things for our PHYSICAL SURVIVAL, the most basic of needs and still we continue to live as we do. You and I are no exception. Oh yes, GOD created me, with free will knowing what I'd do even before I'd do it, he had a repsonsibility to cahnge alter things so that "he" wouldn't know what the out come would be, other wise, GOD created me to do exactly as "HE" for saw. No, I don't think that GOD could have , known everything, and created me with freewill. That is a responsibility GOD would have to take on "his" own shoulders. I'm not saying I'm innocent, but I'm saying, that GOD created me to be everything I am. SO I have no free will, unless he didn't know everything... Because to know is to take responsibility.

"Knowledge is power, with poewr comes great responsibility, With responsibility comes Freedom." - Various sources.

Mental illness came from Man's Sin's? Are you sure about that? So then tell me, where does bipolar come from, what sin does one have to commit for one to get that kind of illness? GOD knew we'd sin, so created punichments? If you say that it's a thing of the devil, then why doesn't GOD correct his faults,and get rid of the devil? So we have to make a choice, but he knows what we'll choose any way.