[Wondergirl]

Christ died for our sins -- ALL of our sins past, present, and future here on earth. Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?

[RickJ]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.



Two Judgments


When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).



Money, Money, Money


One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don't add up.

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar's offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.



A Catholic "Invention"?


Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers' Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)



Why No Protests?


Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine's truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don't exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.



"Purgatory Not in Scripture"


Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren't in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn't use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one's sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man's work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man's work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can't refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can't be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible's approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner's Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.



Why Go To Purgatory?


Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that's not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart's magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete.. . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ's applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.



No Contradiction


The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ's redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn't. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).



Nothing Unclean


Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn't fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Source: Purgatory

[450donn]

WG,
To answer your question is sort of hard, since the word "purgatory" is not used in the bible. But the word "hell" is used six times in my reference book. So based on that, there is no scriptural basis for a place called purgatory that I can find.

[RickJ]

The "trinity" is not in the Bible either, but most Christians believe in it :)

[450donn]

On the contrary, there is!
Mt28;19 2Cor13:14
Site me any place in the scriptures where purgatory is specifically mentioned? Like I said before there is NONE in my Bible. According to my American dictionary, "Roman Catholic Theology,condition or place of purification after death from venial sins."
So this is a theology trumped up by the Roman Catholic Church to make people still living feel good about their dead loved ones that were not saved and therefore doomed to everlasting damnation in the lake of fire as foretold in Rev 20.

[RickJ]

??

I'm not following you.

I grant that the word "Purgatory" is not in the Bible.
"Trinity" is not in the Bible either.

So what's your point?

The question was why Catholic Christians believe what they do about Purgatory.

I gave reference to why.

If someone asked why we Christians believe in the "Trinity", I could help with that too.

... it is true that NEITHER term is in the Bible. But that's OK, right?

[450donn]

And again my answer to WG's question is that there is no scriptural basis for the teaching of purgatory. The secular dictionary I quoted from even mentions that it is a Roman Catholic belief. So I will give you that your answer is useful for a Roman Catholic to understand the principals of this teaching. But there is still no scriptural basis for it, is there?

[RickJ]

But that is not an answer to her question. Her question was why Catholic Christians believe what they do about "purgatory".

I gave an answer. That's what this website is about.

PS/Edit: Wondergirl, please forgive the digression. The post I posted answers (partially) your question. I say partially because entire books have been written on the subject...

I don't ask you (or anyone else) to accept it - I only gave it as a reply to your question of "why do Catholic Christians believe".

[Wondergirl]

So Catholic Christians believe in purgatory because their catechism teaches it?

[RickJ]

No. One who believes just because someone says so is not really "belief".

I fear that you did not read past the first paragraph.

Yes, the "Catechism" teaches it but that is not why we believe. The "Catechism" is only a summary of what we believe - it does just "fair to middlin'" as far as why we believe.

The Apostles hinted at it (the idea of what we today call "purgatory") and the early Church (after "the twelve") argued about it.

[Wondergirl]

I fear that you did not read past the first paragraph.

Ya caught me! I'm at work -- read the first, then skimmed the rest so I wouldn't get fired for not cataloging books.

[Tj3]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

I don't care about denomination specific teachings, but let's look at your other arguments:

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Christians have no such concern:

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself pirged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory. The topic is about men using sound judgment - see verse 57.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

[JoeT777]

I understand this question is to go beyond ‘proof’ of Purgatory and seems to be asking why Catholics want to believe in purgatory.

Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish. (Cf. Lv 21:17-23, 22:21) Further, God demands of us a perfect love, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart” (Deu 6:5-6). The New Testament echoes this very same requirement for one’s entire love to be directed to God.

Even our works are to be tested for the love of God. The Holy Father John Paul II said that the “Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

Others here have rightly pointed out that Christ is man’s intercessor functioning as the high priest sacrificing himself as compensation for our sins. (Cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). “He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).” Being presented to God upon on death we are called to “cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.”

In our worldly endeavors, we come into contact with sin. Sin is a moral evil that stains the soul, and afflicts the heart. But, those of us who merit entering into a communion with God are blessed to with the fullness of eternal life are united with the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant through purgatory’s purification.

“The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where ‘men will weep and gnash their teeth'” (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

Source: L'Osservatore Romano Weekly Edition in English Heaven: 28 July 1999, 7 Hell: 4 August 1999, 7 Purgatory: 11/18 August, 7


JoeT

[arcura]

Wondergirl
The Catholic Church teaches about purgatory because...
1. Holy Scripture indicates the existence of Purgatory.
2. The earliest Christians prayed for the dead in Purgatory.
The writings on the walls of the catacombs under Rome where the early Christians hid form their persecutors and worshipped there give testimony to that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish.

But again,

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?

[JoeT777]

But again,

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?

The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?

JoeT

[arcura]

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

[Tj3]

The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?

Because, if Jesus purged our sins on the cross, then why would you want to believe in something which is not scriptural and which is not required?

[Tj3]

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

Fred,

Some place does not perfect us. Jesus took care of that on the cross:

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

[Wondergirl]

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

So Jesus' death on the cross was just not enough to take away all sins.