[De Maria]

Not in the least. None of what you said comes close to challenging the point.

Not only challenging but demolishing. You insinuated that this country was not founded on Christian principles:

What Christian principles? I'm not arguing with you (yet). But I'm wondering what Christain principles are specifically in the Constitution or that it was based on.


Then you admitted that the principles are Judeo-CHRISTIAN:
Thanks, you fell right into my trap. I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles, but rather judeo-christian principles.

I nor anyone here ever claimed they were "solely" Christian principles. Most Christians that I know understand that Christianity came from Judaism and that, in fact, salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22).

People still refer to Christian principles not Judeo-Christian prinicples. The omission tells the story.

Correct. And what is that story? That Christians founded this nation on principles which they believed. The principles taught by Jesus Christ.

No, there were no Jews in the Continental Congress because your "all men are created equal" Christian founding fathers didn't think they were equal enough.

Did I claim the founding Fathers had no flaws? Do you claim that you have no flaws? If the answer to these questions is, no, then what is the point?

The only thing I can gather is that you have admitted in that statement that the founding Fathers were Christian.

But yes Jews did assist in the Revolution:
How the Jews Saved the American Revolution
Crash Course in Jewish History Part 55 - Jews and the Founding of America
The American Revolution: Haym Salomon

Wonderful! But that has little to do with the fact that this country is founded on Christian principles by Christian Founding Fathers. Two facts you have already admitted.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

for a matter of historical accuracy the Answer is yes ;there were American colonial Jews who fought in the Revolution. Here is a little known fact ;the 1st person in Philadelphia to sign the non-importation agreement in reaction to the Stamp Act was a man named Mathais Bush;a Jew .He was President of the Mikve Israel Congregation .

The Jewish population of the colonies was split as were the rest of the colonies over support for the war .But the Jewish population was largely supportive. In one of the first major battles ;Bunker Hill ,Aaron Solomon stood in the front ranks . Francis Salvador of South Carolina was the first Jew killed in the war. Many more Jews fought and sacrificed for American independence.

It is noteworthy to consider that a major arms supply network was established on Dutch St. Eustatius island by Jewish arms traders. A British fleet under Admiral Sir George Rodney was sent to destroy the supply base at about the same time that Lord Cornwallis began his retreat to Yorktown. Had the fleet not been otherwise occupied it is possible that Cornwallis could've been resupplied . As it turned out a weakened British fleet trying to resupply Cornwallis was defeated by French Admiral Degrasse. The battel of Yorktown was lost and Cornwallis surrendered .
So yes ,Jews did have a small but major contribution to American Independence.

Also of note ; at least 5000 African Americans fought for the colonials.

Good to know. Thanks for the info.

[George_1950]

All this is very interesting, but let's just sum it up because excon sees lurking Christians behind every cherry tree: "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God."

[NeedKarma]

All this is very interesting, but let's just sum it up because excon sees lurking Christians behind every cherry tree: "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God."

Another example of american divisiveness.


______________________________

Proud to be Canadian

[George_1950]

Thanks, NK: you folks used to be our 51st state, but I guess you are about 52nd now. I've read all this stuff about slavery and De Maria seems to be winning because there is no prohibition of slavery in the Bible that I am aware of. I mean, argue the Golden Rule if you can't think of anything else. But all is not lost: we can research the Abolitionist movement and find plenty of ammunition, and some will come from Scripture; it's just that I'm not that conversant with it. After all is said and done, excon can rest easy because it appears that John Locke and the Enlightenment are the progenitors of the U.S. and not the Bible.

[ScottGem]

You haven't demolished anything, not even close. You just dance around the point I'm trying to make without addressing it.

If I say a building is built of steel, that doesn't tell the while story, because the building probably also is built of concrete and other materials. So to say the US was founded on Christian principles doesn't tell the whole story either. But if you insist that the US is a Christian nation, denigrates all the other elements that went into its formation.

[N0help4u]

I hear people argue that the founding fathers were Christian and others say they were deists.
I have read some of the diaries that Christians use to say that George Washington, Ben Franklin and many of the others were Christian.
Quotes of the Founders : Founding Fathers quotes on religion, faith, Christianity

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

[tomder55]

Saph

The founders ;or most of them were active members of Christian denominations ;many were deists and stillactive members of their church .That is about the most irrelevant point in this debate. Thefact is that none of them had a notion that they were founding a "Christian nation" . Honestly ,I think the biggest concern of the colonist were changes in the rules of commerce initiated by the Brits in an attempt to pay for their very expensive war against the French;that had directly benifited the colonists . Had King George not been such an the issues were resolvable. Many of his reactions were punitive and that helped tip the balance of the hearts and minds of the populace in favor of revolution (barely : the populace was pretty much divided between "patriots" ,"tories" and fence sitters)

Scott and George are right ; the influence of the Enlightenment on the founders was the philosophy behind the Revolution.

[George_1950]

For those who are visually inclined: YouTube - Christian nation myth

[excon]

Hello again:

Thanks George. But, you're preachin to the choir. We're not a Christian nation. I wasn't interested in a discussion about whether we ARE or not. That's been established.

I'm more interested in what people like Da Maria think ABOUT their belief. I don't care about the belief itself. I'm NOT interested in WHY Da Maria believes it. I couldn't care less.

My questions are of a social nature rather than a religious nature. But, I've said this before, and nobody seems to get it. They'd rather lay some bible on me...

So, I wonder if you people can't figure out what I'm asking, how can you figure out what Rev. Wright is asking?

excon

[George_1950]

So, I wonder if you people can't figure out what I'm asking, how can you figure out what Rev. Wright is asking?

excon

excon: Did Rev. Wright ask something? What I heard was a series of declarations.

[excon]

Did Rev. Wright ask something? What I heard was a series declarations.

Hello again, George:

Playing semantics?? That's what DC does. But, it's cool. This whole thread has been a semantic dance.

His declarations raise questions.

You musta seen my Jesus thing already. If not, I'm going to repeat it here...

"I ain't no Christian, so what do I know about it? However, Jesus was rabblerousing Jew, and I know something about that.

He wasn't politically correct. He upset the status quo. He disrupted the comfortable. He got angry. He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. You seemed to like it when Jesus did it. Is that cause he was white? Or because YOU were the one being oppressed??? Frankly, Jesus raised holy hell. Why can't Wright?"

excon

[George_1950]

Hello again, George:

Playing semantics??? That's what DC does. But, it's cool. This whole thread has been a semantic dance.

His declarations raise questions.

You musta seen my Jesus thing already. If not, I'm gonna repeat it here.....

"I ain't no Christian, so what do I know about it? However, Jesus was rabblerousing Jew, and I know something about that.

He wasn't politically correct. He upset the status quo. He disrupted the comfortable. He got angry. He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. You seemed to like it when Jesus did it. Is that cause he was white? Or because YOU were the one being oppressed??? Frankly, Jesus raised holy hell. Why can't Wright?"

excon

Thanks excon for helping me with that. Rev. Wright is/was in church, in the U.S. after all. He can raise all the holy hell he wants to, no one saying he can't. Are you confusing 'speaking freely' with the 'consequences of speaking freely'? By the way, why'd they send him to Africa? That's where I heard he was recently.

[Smoked]

Excon

You’re simply mixing categories, a nation cannot be baptized; therefore it cannot be Christian nor can it have any other human qualities.

hmm, another misconception. There is only one way to the father.. That also brings into the conversation we assume we actually know what's on the hearts of the people. I can attest many "Christians" talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Even "if" (which we have already learn it didn't) the Country was founded under Christian view/values/ect... We could never truly answer a question that is so subjective.

[0rphan]

I don't think that there is any clear answer to this question-IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION-
Most people use their religious believes to their own ends ( note I said most and not all)
America has to be classed as a christian nation because the person who runs it is indead a self confessed christian- isn't he!.
On the other hand the UK is a christian country there are numorous different faiths now in a muti cultural society and they are quite freely accepted in fact in some areas overpowering but still the uk is classed as a christian country
This argument could go on I think at the end of the day majority wins in that I mean christianity which means yes America has to be a christian nation

[Smoked]

i don't think that there is any clear answer to this question-IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION-
Most people use their religeous believes to their own ends ( note i said most and not all)
America has to be classed as a christian nation because the person who runs it is indead a self confessed christian- isn't he!.....
On the other hand the UK is a christian country there are numorous differant faiths now in a muti cultural society and they are quite freely accepted infact in some areas overpowering but still the uk is classed as a christian country
This argument could go on i think at the end of the day majority wins in that i mean christianity which means yes America has to be a christian nation

Let me preface this statement with I am a Christian who believes Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. Taking upon himself the curse that man suffered under the law. I profess that from these words you are reading here in this post.. Like many other in the Country who profess their "faith". A large majority of the United States Claims to be Christians including our "fearless leader". That by no means makes the United States a Christian country. Actions would speak louder then words. We do not live in a Christian society. We live in a "Whats in it for me?", "instant gratification" society imposed on us by the majority. So if the Majority rules like you say, then the only conclusion is No, America, The United States, is not a Christian country.

[0rphan]

Hi smoked, I totally agree with your last post, perhaps I should have said America likes to think of itself as a christian country!. there are those purely out for personal gain as you quite rightly state but surely if we are being honest is it not like that around the world, I know many church go 'ers who come out in their Sunday best professing their devotion to the church when in fact I know them to be complete rogues during the week. Talk about keeping up apperences they look like one thing but are completely different if you dig deeper. Hence the saying " what you see is not always what you get"

I think it's all about impression, whether it's impression to your colleges or to the eyes of the world press the principle remains the same

I personally believe in the good guy upstairs and am not out for any personal gain from anyone, there are many true believers out there who practice there religion privately giving what they can to help charities and alike and I'm one of them, we can only do our best which is all the man upstairs asks of us .Many things now all about money including some churches which is very sad, but as the Lord said your church is where you are no matter where that might be , it does't have to be some posh place where every one is dress up.
I am going off the track abit here so to some up, I'll say America and countries alike use the front of " we our a christion country" purely for cosmetic purposes.

Bye for now

[excon]

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read??

excon

[Smoked]

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?????? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read?????

excon

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us
Clearly stated that their can be no belief in something that is not true. Making the question irrelevant.

or brings us together? Nothing as controversial as religion will ever be universally excepted.


Is that clearer for you? No one dropped the bible on your head, just used a couple simple facts to support some statements. Sorry if you didn't bother to read. So.. I thought I would make it very simple.

[Smoked]

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?????? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read?????

excon

By the way.. its called a conversation. Don't provoke it if you don't want it to happen.