[arcura]

Glad I could help with that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[TUT317]

Until the last minutes? What does that mean?

I believe Judas had total free will.

What did Jesus do to intervene?

When was that?

Hi Wondergirl,

He intervened when he said to Judas, 'go and do what you must do'.

Judas was going to make a decision one way or the other because he has free will. No doubt with such an important decision he would have agonized over it until he decided one way or the other.

It is possible to argue in a number of ways. That is, Judas was always certain in his own mind what he was going to do. Judas didn't really want to betray Jesus. The other possibility is that he was in a state of indecision. All of these possibilities can be said to be internally derived.

One definition of free will( the one I have been using) suggests that someone's free will can be subverted if some outside agency is powerful enough to override internal decision making. Clearly. If we hold a gun to someone's head we can take away their free will.

When Jesus said to Judas,'go and do what you must do' it becomes irrelevant as to how Jesus' statement influenced Judas. If Judas was in two minds then this statement would have a powerful influence. On the other hand if Judas was clear in his own mind that he was always going to betray Jesus then this statement would have little impact.

The point is that Jesus attempted to influence Judas' free will by his statement. We all are guilty of attempting to influence the free will of others. This is nothing new or unusual for humans. However, it becomes significant when God/Jesus does it.

Tut

[Wondergirl]

He intervened when he said to Judas, 'go and do what you must do'.

That's not an intervention. Jesus wasn't trying to either stop him or egg him on.

It is possible to argue in a number of ways. That is, Judas was always certain in his own mind what he was going to do. Judas didn't really want to betray Jesus. The other possibility is that he was in a state of indecision. All of these possibilities can be said to be internally derived.

You've given only two possibilities, not "all," and your first one is the same as your second one ("Judas didn't really want to betray Jesus" = "the other possibility is that he was in a state of indecision.")

One definition of free will( the one I have been using) suggests that someone's free will can be subverted if some outside agency is powerful enough to override internal decision making. Clearly. If we hold a gun to someone's head we can take away their free will.

We can, but they may still exert their free will anyway.

The point is that Jesus attempted to influence Judas' free will by his statement. We all are guilty of attempting to influence the free will of others. This is nothing new or unusual for humans. However, it becomes significant when God/Jesus does it.

Wow! Are you saying Jesus messed with Judas' free will and caused him to sin?

[classyT]

The point is that Jesus attempted to influence Judas' free will by his statement. We all are guilty of attempting to influence the free will of others. This is nothing new or unusual for humans. However, it becomes significant when God/Jesus does it.

Tut

Tut<

Judas had no faith. Judas was greedy. Judas wanted what he wanted and he used his position as one of the 12 disciples to try and get it. He had freewill the entire time. Even after he betrayed the Lord COULD have asked the Lord Jesus to forgive him, and the Lord would have. But he didn't. No one influenced Judas except for maybe satan and satan couldn't have entered him if he would have had faith in who Jesus really was. Judas had this little deal going on behind (or at least what he THOUGHT was behind) the Lord's back. All Jesus was saying was to get it over with. I don't get how that influenced him? The Bible says that Jesus knew the heart of man. So, he knew Judas heart. If he would have begged and pleaded with Judas NOT to do it, do you really think he wouldn't have? The Lord point blank TOLD Peter he was going to deny him 3 times that night before the rooster crowed, and much to Peter dismay, he did just that. Does that mean he influence Peter too? Please... The Lord knows ALL things but that doesn't mean each individual isn't responsible for their choices.

[TUT317]

Wow! Are you saying Jesus messed with Judas' free will and caused him to sin?

No I am not saying that. If I were then I would be saying there is no such thing as free will. This is not my position. There are few outside agencies powerful enough to negate our free will.

If we assume that Judas' mind was made up then nothing anyone (including Jesus) could say to make him change his mind. So Jesus' statement was NOT significant in terms of influencing free will. Even if Jesus requested Judas not to betray him it probably would have fallen on deaf ears.

The other possibility is that Judas was in two minds. In this context Jesus' statement takes on more significance. I am NOT saying that this statement is enough to cause Judas to betray Jesus under these circumstances. What I am saying is that there is an argument for attempted intervention.


Actually, when I think it through a bit further I am happy to believe that Jesus knew the future. Therefore, the statement is not significant under these circumstances.

Tut

[arcura]

I am of a firm mind that Judas had free will all the time.
Fred