[inthebox]

Altenweg:

I've broken them all. [ 1 john 3 ;15 :eek: ]

And I did not have to swing that way. ;)

That is why a I agree with :

Romans 7

And

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1193507

[Alty]

I've broken them all. [ 1 john 3 ;15 ]

Even number 6?:eek:

[inthebox]

1 John 3:
15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer

Guilty as charged :(

[Alty]

Oh, okay, I'm was going with the one I grew up with, thou shalt not kill.

Don't be so hard on yourself, you are human, and as such you will make mistakes. To err is human... :)

[Credendovidis]

Well maybe in a perfect world.

In that case it is god's fault that the world in imperfect. Accordingly to your beliefs it is god who - although being a perfect being - created that imperfect world.
Logical conclusion : an entity that creates unperfection is unperfect itself, as a perfect entity can only create perfection.

"Perfection" in this case means sinless or without sin.

That is YOUR interpretation. Perfect means being without faults. That we have to interpret "god's word" also points at god being unperfect...

:rolleyes:

·

[sndbay]

In that case it is god's fault that the world in imperfect. Accordingly to your beliefs it is god who - although being a perfect being - created that imperfect world.
Logical conclusion : an entity that creates unperfection is unperfect itself, as a perfect entity can only create perfection.


That is YOUR interpretation. Perfect means being without faults. That we have to interpret "god's word" also points at god being unperfect ...

:rolleyes:

·

In the attempt to point out the importance of choice and our daily pattern we have gone back to the beginning and found perfection created, yet no thankfulness received. Instead satan, as the first at taking that perfection, and turning into correption by choice. Why correption? it was a choice. Why not a perfect Zombies? That was God's choice in wanting to create us for His pleasure. I believe God wants His children to love Him and have the choices in life to love others as well. God gives choice in loving Him rather then making a Zombie that has no choice in love or evil. No choice in sin or righteousness.

I think we got a better deal then what you are willing to admit. And one day in heaven there will be the perfect world that was by ownership of your own choice, and not as a Zombie.

Now is that Perfect..

[sndbay]

You keep talking in circles, but keep missing the essential point here :

Such is life the continued circle. The pattern of choice.

Accordingly to your belief everything was created by a perfect being.

Correct, God is perfect, Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

And perfect beings can only make perfect creations, as if they make imperfect creations, they are not perfect.

Each are created perfect, it is by choice which enters in to cause the imperfect.

And also lacking thanksfulness is an imperfection.

Choice to not be thankful..

Now without your personal interpretations please explain the existence of badness, of lacking thanksfulness, of the devil, etc. : all imperfections created by a claimed perfect entity !

okay no personal interpretation.. satan' choice

Eze 28:16-18 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted [/U]because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

What appears to be evident, is that your interpretation of perfection is that God should have created Zombies or some type of puppet.. Without choice in going left or right itself ?
Where I truly believe, God created the perfect solution by giving us choice in this earth age, to be or not to be of the age of eternity in heaven.

~ God is patient

Ecc 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

[Credendovidis]

Such is life the continued circle. The pattern of choice

I note that you once more try to skip the essence of what I stated : perfection is just a religious claim. No OSE exists that 100% perfection is a valid claim.

Correct, God is perfect

In that case you can surely provide me with OSE for that religious claim, so I ask myself why you so desperately try to evade that point...

Each are created perfect, it is by choice which enters in to cause the imperfect.

Anything that is created perfectly has no choice, other than be perfect. If the choice exist to be(come) imperfect, it was never perfect in the first place.

:rolleyes:

·

[Alty]

If I was created perfectly then where did I go wrong? I want my money back! ;)

Sndbay, I see that you feel very strongly about your beliefs, and that's good, but nothing that you've stated so far is proof of what you claim. You cannot prove God through scriptures, because the bible has never been proven to actually be the "word of God". Yes, it's an interesting read, yes there are some great stories, but fact? Really? I don't think so.

The problem we have on this thread is that you are dealing with everyone on this site when you post on the Religious Discussion board. Not everyone has the same beliefs as you, so claiming that your beliefs are fact because of the bible, well, that's not going to work for allot of us.

Cred has a point, if we were created by God and he created us in his image, then wouldn't we be perfect, without sin, without struggle? Something to think about.

Personally, I think that God was bored, and we're his entertainment. I'm kidding everyone, but it's an interesting thought. ;):)

[sndbay]

Posted Topic

It's ownership by your own decision.. You decided what you do.. You decided what you believe..

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

So either God is perfect and everyone was therefore created perfect, or ...
God is not perfect, which explains why humans are not perfect (well : at least if they were created by God).

It's ownership of your own decision... You decided what you do.. You decided what you believe... which explains why humans are not perfect

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

[sndbay]

With all respect : that is what you BELIEVE and as argument it has no validity.
One does not just decide about such things. One does not just decide what to believe or not to believe.
Your subconcious has a great influence in such matters. It controls most of your feelings. It has great influence on one's views. That is why nobody just suddenly changes world view and start, change, or end religious belief. Time is the master of such changes.
Nobody just decides what he/she believes.

:rolleyes:

·

Thank you for allowing me what I believe...

As for the validity... Yes, you acknowledged how my choice and ownshiper to what I believe does indeed put forth a result known as Faith.

Power of suggestion has influence matters of this world for years. Agree. But also witnesses to a belief does count, as do witness to all world affairs count. Followed by that same choice to believe or not believe.

So I don't believe, NObody just decides what is or isn't.. I believe witness to Truth does plays the influence of what we choose. And that is why I hold the bible as that witness and example. A history of witness that has been in existence for years.

[Credendovidis]

Thank you for allowing me what I believe.

If you mean with that "allowing you to believe" : I have ALWAYS stated that people should be allowed to believe whatever they prefer. So nothing new.

So I don't believe, NObody just decides what is or isn't..

There are always exceptions to every rule of hand.
But in general what I stated is correct.

:rolleyes:

.

[Alty]

Sndbay, my problem is that you believe only because of the bible. Yes I know you're beliefs, that the bible was written by the Holy spirit, but there is no proof of that. There is however proof that the book was written by men, men who claim that the stories are true.

Maybe the stories are correct, but they are too farfetched, in my opinion, to be truth.

My question to you, would you still believe if there was no bible, only stories passed on generation to generation by word of mouth?

What of churches and the fallible men who preach there? They too are filled with the Holy Spirit according to you. Well, why do some of these men molest children, have affairs (which is against the rules of the Catholic church) and commit other sins? If they are filled with the Holy Spirit then they should be without sin, but some of the sins they commit are not only against the church but against the laws of humanity and morality.

I do agree that you have a right to your faith, I just think that what you base your faith on is shaky at best.

Once again, I do believe in God, but not the God of the bible, not the God preached about in church. Those are mens words and mens beliefs, therefore they must be taken with a grain of salt.

I mean no disrespect, still trying to understand why you hold so much validity in the bible.

[sndbay]

Sndbay, my problem is that you believe only because of the bible. Yes I know youre beliefs, that the bible was written by the Holy spirit, but there is no proof of that. There is however proof that the book was written by men, men who claim that the stories are true. .

Those same men told of the inspiration of their written work.
And were in the presence of Jesus enough to say they were witness to His Truth.
What is called legel-historical proof ? What is based on showing that something is fact beyond a reasonable doubt. Verdict is reached by weight of evidence. This depends on three types of testimony: oral, written, and exhibits.
As for scientific method; used method to prove repeatable things. It is not adequate for proving or disproving questions on history event. Did George Washington live? Was Jesus Christ raised from the dead? This is out of the realm of scientific proof, and are understandingly put in the legal realm.

First Note: Commandment "To Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind" Problem is some people seem to stop with their heart, and facts don't reach their mind. The mind is innovated by the Holy Spirit to know God, as well as the heart to love Him. The heart and mind are created to work in harmony together.

Maybe the stories are correct, but they are too farfetched, in my opinion, to be truth.

My question to you, would you still believe if there was no bible, only stories passed on generation to generation by word of mouth?

Yes I trust I would still believe in the existence of what is, because as I have said, it is evident. You might say you are an example of that in your own decision. But I do trust more in what scripture offers, and believe I am less likely to fall under man's authority verse God's. God had a good reason for bringing what is written through The Holy Spirit. Many manuscript which document as well to name just a few. History of Thucydides 460-400 BC available and written, MSS of history of Herodotus a likewise scarce. Aristotle wrote his poetics 343 BC. Caesar composed his history btween 58-50 BC. So when it comes to the manuscript authority which does refer New Testament, the abundane of material is almost embarrassing in contrast.

What of churches and the fallible men who preach there? They too are filled with the Holy Spirit according to you. Well, why do some of these men molest children, have affairs (which is against the rules of the Catholic church) and commit other sins? If they are filled with the Holy Spirit then they should be without sin, but some of the sins they commit are not only against the church but against the laws of humanity and morality.

Understand, that I do not disagree with what is wrong and sinful in this world. But it takes my heart and mind to refer scripture that tells us to beware. Why? Again goes back to free choice that was given to us. And the deception that comes in to either following light or darkness. Light is the law that balances these choices, if you choose to do so. I find Truth in the bible, and I am aware of what is taking place in churches that say they are of God in name sake, and are not. Scripture warns us of these false teachers, that ask you to follow their authority. I am thankful that scripture written has told us this. And Jesus Himself has fore told you this in II Thessalonians... There is a posting on the Christian forum example the scripture.

The Holy Spirit is present when? 1 Corintians 2: 9-16 But as it has been written, Eye saw not, and ear heard not, and went not upon the heart of man, the things which God... had prepared for them that love him. But God revealed [them] unto us through his Spirit: for The Holy Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things also of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, except The Holy Spirit of God. Now we... have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit [new nature]which is of God; in order that we might know the things that are freely given [as a act of grace] to us of God. Which things we speak also, not in the words taught by man's wisdom, but in things taught by The Holy Ghost; interpreting, to fit the meaning to the words, spiritual things to spiritual men. But the natural man receiveth not the things of The Holy Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual discerned all things, yet he himself is discerned of no man. For who knew the mind of the Lord, who shall instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Once again, I do believe in God, but not the God of the bible, not the God preached about in church. Those are mens words and mens beliefs, therefore they must be taken with a grain of salt.

I mean no disrespect, still trying to understand why you hold so much validity in the bible.

God invites you and all to open their hearts and minds to His love. His promise is there. The light is there. It is your free choice in decision to follow, and allow God to lead you through The Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1 Timothy 4: 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Tell me.. Do you believe the miracles of the disciples were done, and who actually did those miracles?

[Credendovidis]

To Altenweg : "Tell me.. Do you believe the miracles of the disciples were done, and who actually did those miracles?"

Why would she believe that ? She is not a Christian. She is a Deist.

:rolleyes:

·

[sndbay]

Why would she believe that ? She is not a Christian. She is a Deist.

·

#1 Because she has a right to her own choice (and) reply

# 2 Because of legel-historical proof.

#3 Evidence: oral, written, and exhibits.

[Alty]

#1 Because she has a right to her own choice (and) reply

Fine, you want me to tell you, I'm a Deist.

# 2 Because of legel-historical proof.

What do you mean by legel?

#3 Evidence: oral, written, and exhibits.

Oral the teachings in Church, nope, don't believe in that. Written, the bible, don't believe in that either, exhibits, which ones?

Sndbay, we aren't to agree, that's clear, you are trying to convince me using the bible, church, two things I will not allow in to my life, because to me they aren't valid and not proof of God's existence.

[Fr_Chuck]

Thread closed, and a large percert of thread deleted, personal attacks, off thread discussion and repeating and repeating thierself again and agine with similar posts with the same comment of believing.