[Wondergirl]

Without Judas, how would have the events of Jesus unfold... Think about it.

Without Judas, there would have been someone else. God knows the future and allows events to play out as we will them. Had Judas not been the one who was eager for an earthly king, there would have been another scenario. God could have waited until 1975 and sent Jesus then and allowed modern-day events to cause Jesus' death. Maybe God's plan could have made Jesus an illegal immigrant in the U.S. who becomes a cause célèbre and is mistakenly killed. Maybe Jesus could have been picked up in France as a terrorist suspect (ethnic profiling) and ended up being executed without evidence and a fair trial.

Hmmm, maybe I should write a thriller about Jesus living in modern times.

[InfoJunkie4Life]

Wondergirl...

I happen to have a different philosophy on things, as I don't exactly believe in free will. However, that is a different discussion for a different time. One thing I would like to point out to your freewill argument:

It could have been someone else, or a different time or way. There are however only a few possibilities. The event must have happened as the OT predicted. There are a certain criteria for which Christ had to follow, besides being perfect. There were a certain number of things, also predicted in the OT, that must have happened to, events that would have been foretold long before.

I'm not saying these predictions controlled the people or anything of the sort, but rather that they saw what is to happen. Much like the same way we wait for the events in Revelation to play out. They will happen as said, but in no way contradicting free will.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl...

It could have been someone else, or a different time or way. There are however only a few possibilities. The event must have happened as the OT predicted. [snip] Much like the same way we wait for the events in Revelation to play out.

God being God could have managed it even with the OT "predictions." And of course you knew that I (and many others) believe the events in Revelation have already occurred.

[dwashbur]

I dislike the term "free will." I prefer to say "responsibility." There are several passages in Paul and other places that basically say God guides events, predestines certain things, etc. etc. etc. but we know that God holds us responsible for our actions. I don't think people have "free will" in the sense that most folks mean it. I believe in both God's sovereignty and human responsibility. How do I reconcile the two? I don't. It's way beyond my comprehension. But I see both taught in the Bible, so I accept that somehow they reconcile in God's mind. Just another example of why he's God and I'm not.

[InfoJunkie4Life]

Of course, God is God, He can manage anything anyway He wants. I wasn't exactly aware of your beliefs, but no contest here.

[Wondergirl]

I dislike the term "free will." I prefer to say "responsibility."

Responsibility and consequences are what come after. Free will is making a choice -- for good or for ill. Rabbi Kushner wrote a terrific book about this and why there is evil in the world, When bad things happen to good people. Have you read it?

[dwashbur]

Responsibility and consequences are what come after.

Yes.

Free will is making a choice -- for good or for ill.

That's the part I'm not so sure about.

Rabbi Kushner wrote a terrific book about this and why there is evil in the world, When bad things happen to good people. Have you read it?

I've read parts of it, but don't remember that much about it. The best illustration I've ever seen of God's sovereignty and human responsibility (or free will, if you like) was a picture of a pair of railroad tracks vanishing off into the distance. One rail is God's sovereignty, including predestination and all the rest, and the other is man's ability to make choices and be held responsible for them. Somewhere over the horizon in the mind of God, the two come together. But it's far beyond what I can see.

[TUT317]

I've read parts of it, but don't remember that much about it. The best illustration I've ever seen of God's sovereignty and human responsibility (or free will, if you like) was a picture of a pair of railroad tracks vanishing off into the distance. One rail is God's sovereignty, including predestination and all the rest, and the other is man's ability to make choices and be held responsible for them. Somewhere over the horizon in the mind of God, the two come together. But it's far beyond what I can see.

Hi dwash

Compatibilists would agree that free will and determinism are not contradictory.I am a compatibilist, but perhaps we are different types of compatibilists.

Generally speaking we can say that a person acts freely when his/her actions are caused internally. In other words, a persons actions are free if it is caused by a person's belief and desires ( leaving aside such things as psychosis).

Again, generally speaking a person can be said not to be a free agent if their actions are caused by an external agent strong enough to force them into action.

Jesus was the only agent strong enough to do this to Judas. Why would Jesus break the rule of taking away Judas' free will? Keeping in mind that God lets people exercise their free will.



Apologies to Wondergirl. I didn't read your previous posts. I just got back and didn't do my homework.


Tut

[Wondergirl]

I will agree that compatibilism regarding the sovereignty of God and the free will of man are not mutually exclusive. How then, Tut, do you think of determinism? I don't agree with you that Jesus somehow caused Judas to act.

[Fr_Chuck]

First moved over to discussion, to allow a more "open" communication.

And would Judas not be upset, and feeling betrayed his self. He saw Jesus do all the miracles he saw Jesus move groups of 5000 or more, and after all of that, Jesus would not make his kingdom on earth ( they way he wanted) Jesus would not take the 5000 and storm the city and the temple. Jesus would not throw the temple leaders out and set himself upon the head of the church.

Most of the 12 and followers were still looking for that earthly king to the very end, And all of the 12 just did not get it, since after Jesus was crucified they went and hid in fear.

[TUT317]

I will agree that compatibilism regarding the sovereignty of God and the free will of man are not mutually exclusive. How then, Tut, do you think of determinism? I don't agree with you that Jesus somehow caused Judas to act.

Hi wondergirl,

If you are asking what I understand by determinism I would say that all events including human action are determined by the state of the laws of nature at any particular moment. Chance events do no occur.

I am not a rigid determinist for a number of reasons. I see that we are free agents provided there are no external influences (deterministic) strong enough to take away our choices. On this basis I don't believe it is realistic to say that we have freedom all of the time.

Could you outline why you think Jesus didn't cause Judas to act.

Regards

Tut

[Wondergirl]

If you are asking what I understand by determinism I would say that all events including human action are determined by the state of the laws of nature at any particular moment. Chance events do no occur.

Please give me an example.

I don't believe it is realistic to say that we have freedom all of the time.

Please give an example to shown when we don't.

Could you outline why you think Jesus didn't cause Judas to act.

Judas could have decided at the last minute not to betray Jesus. I'm not sure what that then says about God's omniscience and the idea of determinism. God didn't really know what Judas was going to do, so Judas really wasn't part of God's plan, i.e. God didn't really HAVE a plan?

[JoeCanada76]

God always has a plan. Including Judas and knowing what he was going to do. Meaning that every piece of the puzzle that Jesus put together was part of the bigger plan. Or we would not have the story about Jesus that we do now.

[arcura]

I really think that Judas was not of God's PLAN.
Judas had his own free will and God who knows everything, knew what Judas would decide to do.
Therefor Jesus also knew and let Judas know that He did know.unfortunately or not form what Jesus said Judas may have thought that what Judas was going to do was OK with Jesus.
Of course it was OK because Jesus' mission included dying for redemption of our sins.
The more I think about it the sadder that seems to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fredf

[TUT317]

Hi Wondergirl,

Sorry I took so long to get back to you.

You were asking about an example of rigid determinism.

Rigid determinists claim that chance events do not occur. I guess the best example can be found in other religions. Some non-Christian religions claim that things happen not because of chance, luck or free will but because God controls how things will turn out.

Why don't we have complete freedom of will all of the time?

Well actually, we do. However, it is important to distinguish between freedom of will and freedom of action. It is the freedom of action which restricts our free will. I think most of us have willed many things, but external circumstances prevent us from achieving our desires. For example, we all have out biological and psychological conditions which restrain us from time to time.

You are right when you say that Judas could have changed his mind at the last minute and not betrayed Jesus. He had free will up until the last minutes.

On this basis one would go along with the idea that God does not intervene when it comes to exercising our free will. However, I still can't figure out why Jesus/God intervened, unless he knew Judas was going to change his mind. Perhaps he was making sure he didn't change his mind.

You say that you are not sure what that says about God's omniscience and the idea of determinism. I'm not sure myself, but the evidence seems to point to the fact that God has intervened in our free will-- if only once.

Regards

Tut

[Wondergirl]

You are right when you say that Judas could have changed his mind at the last minute and not betrayed Jesus. He had free will up until the last minutes.

Until the last minutes? What does that mean?

I believe Judas had total free will.

I still can't figure out why Jesus/God intervened, unless he knew Judas was going to change his mind. Perhaps he was making sure he didn't change his mind.

What did Jesus do to intervene?

the evidence seems to point to the fact that God has intervened in our free will-- if only once.

When was that?

[arcura]

It does seem to me that Judas had free will up until he did what he intended to do.
After that what was done was done though later Judas wanted to undo what he had done.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

It does seem to me that Judas had free will up until he did what he intended to do.

... until he did what he intended to do?? When was his free will taken away? When did it end?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I thought I explained that, but perhaps it was no clear enough for you. When
Judas did what he intended to do the die was cast on that subject.
His will on IT was done as I mentioned. There was no turning back.
Of course Judas still had free will on other subject he may have been considering.
Everyone has free will until their dying day that is what I believe and mean to say.
But when we do as we willed then the die is cast. It's done. The free will on that subject has been accomplished.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Thank you, arcura. When you said, "Judas had free will up until he did what he intended to do," it sounded like suddenly his free will was taken away at the last minute. I'm glad you clarified.