[Wondergirl]

All of the above sounds like a lot of pomp and circumstance to me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Confession and absolution have been a ritual in church services for thousands of years.

[cozyk]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Confession and absolution have been a ritual in church services for thousands of years.

That is true, yet it is why I don't care for church services, too much ritual. Not enough real.

[Wondergirl]

3. Because of her, the rest of us have to pay.

Of course, none of us would have believed the serpent and would have then eaten the fruit. We all go through each day without gossiping, lying, cheating, stealing, dishonoring someone, hating, envying, being jealous, being angry. Nope. No succumbing to temptation and fruit-eating for any of us.

[Wondergirl]

That is true, yet it is why I don't care for church services, too much ritual. Not enough real.

So how would you bring in "real"? What would you change and add?

[450donn]

That is true, yet it is why I don't care for church services, too much ritual. Not enough real.

If you are having problems with all the pomp and ceremony in one church why drop out completely. Why not try another flavor of church?
Not everyone is satisfied with the way the catholic church for instance conducts it's servi8ces. Some don't like my brand either. I really don't care. As long as you are in a spirit filled church that preaches the word of God I really don't care where you attend.

[cozyk]

I attended church regularly for 40 plus years. I've been a Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian. I've been a member of six different churches. The best church I've ever attended took place in a high school , was extremely casual, there was no "stand up, recite this, kneel down say that." There was a band that played secular music that was in some way connected to the message for that day. I don't care for hymns. They just seem to d-r-a-g-g-g- on and the wording is so old. ( I like more energetic music) They had skits most Sundays that would convey a point and make you think. The minister did not "preach" to us and did not talk down to us or ever shout to us from a lofty pulpit. The only reason I stop going was because it was in Richmond Va. And we moved to Pa. I have been searching for that same kind of church ever since, and believe me, I've looked under every rock. Even churches that have so called "contemporary services" aren't nearly as casual as the one in Richmond. But, I keep my eyes and ears open to this day, I just don't visit that much anymore.

[Wondergirl]

I have been searching for that same kind of church ever since, and believe me, I've looked under every rock. Even churches that have so called "contemporary services" aren't nearly as casual as the one in Richmond. But, I keep my eyes and ears open to this day, I just don't visit that much anymore.

Have you contacted that church in Richmond to find out where similar and associated churches are in PA? Are you close to NY or NJ or OH that you would go across state lines for that kind of church if one is there?

[cozyk]

Have you contacted that church in Richmond to find out where similar and associated churches are in PA? Are you close to NY or NJ or OH that you would go across state lines for that kind of church if one is there?

I spoke to the Richmond church about that before I left. They guided me to a particular kind of church to look for, but when I attended, it wasn't the same thing. "Too bible-ley"
I live in Atlanta now. Haven't found anything here in the 5 years I've been here.

[De Maria]

If you are having problems with all the pomp and ceremony in one church why drop out completely. Why not try another flavor of church?
Not everyone is satisfied with the way the catholic church for instance conducts it's servi8ces. Some don't like my brand either. I really don't care. As long as you are in a spirit filled church that preaches the word of God I really don't care where you attend.

That's funny. :p

While you're at it, why not make up your own religion? What does Jesus have to do with it anyway? Why have rituals? What does it matter that Jesus established them? Why become a member of Christ's Church? What does it matter that Jesus established it?

Yeah, that's funny.

[arcura]

Akoue,
Yes that ia a good point and good to make it known to students.
I think the guys don't like it because the point hits home.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

[cozyk]

That's funny. :p

While you're at it, why not make up your own religion? What does Jesus have to do with it anyway? Why have rituals? What does it matter that Jesus established them? Why become a member of Christ's Church? What does it matter that Jesus established it?

Yeah, that's funny.

How much control do we have over our likes and dislikes. Example, you go to a movie. You either like it or not. Say you did not like it. Now, someone else tells you that you should because it had all the parts that make up a good movie. Can you make yourself like it just because someone said you should. I hate tea, and no amount of convincing about how refreshing it is is going to change how I truly feel about it.

I feel the same way about formal religion. It just rubs every nerve in my body the wrong way. Rituals bore me and are often just something that drones on and means nothing to me. I don't believe Jesus cares HOW we come to him. Christians don't corner the market on God or Jesus.

[arcura]

cozyk,
Of course you can believe as you wish but that does not change what did or taught by word and deed.
There was purpose in everything Jesus did and taught and He ask all you want to follow Him to abide by what he did and taught.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cozyk]

It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Envy, boastfulness, self seeking, anger, and record keeping are the traits that are ego fights for. The absence of ego would make all of us more Christ like. The "awareness " or "observer " part of you, witnessing all those egoic traits is called "stillness", "presence", or "Christ with-in." God is love and love is God. EVEN if it is between two people of the same sex.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

Love keeps no record of wrongs.

I suspect that the general theme of the bible in the original languages is that God is LOVE. The same bible that religion has used to try to control the minds of the masses with fear and guilt is the same bible that screams that God is LOVE.

I believe it is such a crying shame the way the bible has been used as a weapon to control with fear, guilt, and shame. That is the opposite of what I believe God intended.

Does not our heavenly Father teach us about love not only by His words but also by His actions and example? Also isn't God capable of saving the world on His own and without our help and without our permission? Wouldn't a loving earthly parent rescue their child from an oncoming car against that child's will? Is it really such a tall order for God to save His creation without their consent?[/QUOTE]

This is what I meant by gathering ideas from others. I never looked at it this way but it makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks.:)

[arcura]

cozyk,
Is it wrong for a parent to tell their children that is they don't obey they will be punished?
It is a warning, something to be respected, not feared.
Fear enters the picture when a child has done wrong. It is then that the child fears getting the punishment he/she was warned about.
If the child confesses the wrong with sincerity most parents will forgive.
God has promised that He will forgive sins which are confessed with sincere remorse.
That is more liberal than most parents will do.
It is the mark of unconditional love.
We are taught by Jesus the we should also forgive endlessly.
He told us that God will forgive us as we forgive others.
Thus that is one way in which Jesus taught us to be like God.
So it is wise, thoughtful, merciful, and God like to forgive others sins.
I went to Mass this evening and asked for forgiveness.
I have already forgiven everyone who has sinned against me via thought, word or deed whether I know about it or not.
That includes people in all walks of life, some I do not know that have sinned against me. As an example people in government who may have sinned against me in some way like taking away one of my freedoms or people who want to stifle my religion comes to mind.
That is how I asked God to forgive me.
I have no doubt that He has done so for God does not break His promises.
I thank God with all my heart that He IS a God of perfect, infinite love and mercy.
Think about that deeply. Will you do the same?
If not, why not?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cozyk]

Think about that deeply. Will you do the same?
If not, why not?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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Think about which part? I already believe God is a God of love, forgiveness and all that is good. That is why I don't believe in hell. I think we are an essence or being before we are born, we visit this planet in the form of a human body and when we die we are back to the "being" That is why we are called human beings. We are beings having a human experience for a finite time and then we continue to live on as beings. Life, it never dies, it just changes form.

[arcura]

cozyk
I meant think about all that U said including the forgiveness part and the part of God being our heavenly parent who warns us about possible punishment if we do not obey Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cozyk]

cozyk,
Is it wrong for a parent to tell their children that is they don't obey they will be punished?
It is a warning, something to be respected, not feared.
Fear enters the picture when a child has done wrong. It is then that the child fears getting the punishment he/she was warned about.
If the child confesses the wrong with sincerity most parents will forgive.
God has promised that He will forgive sins which are confessed with sincere remorse.
That is more liberal than most parents will do.
It is the mark of unconditional love.
We are taught by Jesus the we should also forgive endlessly.
He told us that God will forgive us as we forgive others.
Thus that is one way in which Jesus taught us to be like God.
So it is wise, thoughtful, merciful, and God like to forgive others sins.
I went to Mass this evening and asked for forgiveness.
I have already forgiven everyone who has sinned against me via thought, word or deed whether I know about it or not.
That includes people in all walks of life, some I do not know that have sinned against me. As an example people in government who may have sinned against me in some way like taking away one of my freedoms or people who want to stifle my religion comes to mind.
That is how I asked God to forgive me.
I have no doubt that He has done so for God does not break His promises.
I thank God with all my heart that He IS a God of perfect, infinite love and mercy.
Think about that deeply. Will you do the same?
If not, why not?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We could go around in circles about this forever. I think the main difference we have is that you give God human like characteristics where he is making judgments, rewarding or punishing our souls. Abide by the christian view, go to a "place" called heaven. Don't abide by the christian view, go to a "place" called hell.

I think God is an essence that IS life. He didn't make life , he IS life. He IS love. He IS goodness. He IS truth. He doesn't spend time keeping score of our good deeds or sins.
He is a part of us before, during, and after our time on earth. On earth our ego is trying to block him out, but he is there in you "be still" that is shut down the noise in your head and just be. My fav verse that rings true to me. Be still and know that I am God.

[arcura]

cozyk
Your belief in God is interesting but I believe in the biblical God and hell.
I also believe in the human-like characteristics we got from Him when He created us in His image. That is why He is called Almighty Father.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[jakester]

cozyk
Your belief in God is interesting but I believe in the biblical God and hell.
I also believe in the human-like characteristics we got from Him when He created us in His image. That is why He is called Almighty Father.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Cozyk - I have to second arcura. Your belief in God is interesting. I do think your view of God somehow serves your own private interpretation of life and reality as you see it. In other words, God and what "it" is like, is a complete construct of your own imagination. God as you see him, fits your worldview model and there is no room for the possibility of morality and its demands upon our choices. In your concept of reality with God in it, there is no need for moral absolutes; no need for righteousness; no need for defining the purpose of my existence. In your world, there is no need for good and equally no need for bad. I can be whatever sort of person I want to be and God will love me all the same; no matter if I absolutely detest him and despise him. I think this view of God is self-serving and trivial; it totally denies the need for pursuing good and learning to live for my creator.

Even as I write this, I know what I say is ultimately irrelevant to you—I guess I cannot help myself. As a rational human being, I cannot sit idly by and witness your caricaturing of the God of the bible and expect that I should not argue against the implausibility of your view of God. I respect you as a human being and your mind and your right to personal dignity as one created in the image of God. But your view of God stands against 2000 years worth of thoughtful wrestlings of men and women that spent themselves trying to understand life and its meaning; they sought to make sense of the world we live in by pouring their lives into examining life and examining the bible to see whether what the bible was saying was right. Many of these same men and women even faced untimely and cruel deaths to defend the integrity of the bible and of God. However, God need not any defending because he is the one who searches the minds and hearts of people and is not on trial. Cozyk, I think you have really stopped short of being a thoughtful and reflective person because as I said before, in your mind your view of God and your interpretation of reality is all that matters to you. Your view carries its own authority because you are the god of your own existence—you call the shots and your view of life is what is true. This I think this is your major downfall because you base all of your arguments upon your own view and you are certainly fallable just like we all are—it is that point that I cannot seem to get past and must continue to make it.

But again, what does it matter? We all reach a point of no return in our thinking where no amount of reasoning can change our minds about what it is we are committing ourselves to. I know that I am wasting my time trying to convince you. My views do not matter but if I am right, I am willing to defend the authority of the bible and give compelling arguments for the others readers who may not know there is another way of looking at reality than yours, Cozyk.

Respectfully.

[De Maria]

.... But your view of God stands against 2000 years worth of thoughtful wrestlings of men and women that spent themselves trying to understand life and its meaning; they sought to make sense of the world we live in by pouring their lives into examining life and examining the bible to see whether what the bible was saying was right.......
Respectfully.

Not only against them, but also against they who were inspired by that same God directly to communicate to us His nature and being.

Sincerely,