[jlisenbe]

it is nothing more than ancestor worship

If you don't understand the rule of law, and you clearly don't, it would be better to simply say so.

[paraclete]

I understand the rule of law, I live under just laws that don't allow gun massacres, you don't have the rule of law, you have anarchy and it is because you have an eighteenth century mentality where guns are concerned. How long is it since the last Indian massacre? when did the British in Canada last invade? when did Mexico invade? Had to deal with any rattlers or grizzly's lately? When was the militia last called to defend the nation?

Perhaps if you called out the militia to deal with gun violence, drugs and other undesirable elements there might be a point, but you have a standing military, you have police forces up the wahzoo and you still have massacres, so the whole concept must exist on a false premise

[Athos]

so the whole concept must exist on a false premise

You have hit the nail on the head.

The continued gun control problem is caused by none of those things you mentioned. It IS based on a false premise. The false premise being a certainty that eventually the government will take over and remove all freedoms and all liberties from the citizens. Gun ownership is believed to be the best defense against our own government if the left gained power and influence.

This idea took root in the red scare of the 1900s and was strengthened by the Bolshevik takeover of Czarist Russia. It reared its ugly head in the McCarthy era of the post war 1940s and resulted in blacklisting by the thought police in Congress of several Hollywood actors and directors who made movies supporting our WW2 ally Russia. The takeover of Eastern Europe by the Soviet Union and the fall of Nationalist China to Mao solidified the notion that Communism was on the rise. The loss in Vietnam further exacerbated the problem.

Fear of anarchy and godless Communism ruled the day for those of a certain persuasion that developed into the fringe of the Republican Party which has further developed today into a general takeover of the Party by this fringe group.

Oddly, the idea of a Fascist takeover never bothered the anti-communist people. In fact, as recently as Trump, the autocratic governments of the right have all too frequently been favored by Republican foreign policy.

The fact that citizens armed with pistols and rifles would be no match for the government's military does not seem to have mollified the gun lobby. The combination of narrow history, wishful thinking, and peer pressure is the glue holding the movement together.

The Second Amendment is cited as the main reason for gun ownership, but that's simply a smokescreen to give a shimmer of patriotism to the movement. Any ordinary reading of the Amendment clearly reserves guns to a militia, but that has repeatedly been discarded as untrue due to the financial power and influence of the gun lobby.

Meanwhile the mass shootings continue to slaughter the innocent including children.

[tomder55]

And why are males needing all those guns?

25% of women own guns in the US . Of first time ownership in the US in 2020 ;40% were women

A neighbor/homeowner (safe neighborhood) almost shot a woman neighbor in the head with his beloved revolver when she knocked on the door at 11 one night, needing two eggs for the cake she was baking.

strange behavior don't you think ? I would not answer the door that time of night unless I was certain who was knocking.

[tomder55]

The false premise being a certainty that eventually the government will take over and remove all freedoms and all liberties from the citizens

Having lived in a nation this last year where liberties were routinely violated under the guise of public health and welfare ; I have to question your premise .

Oddly, the idea of a Fascist takeover never bothered the anti-communist people. In fact, as recently as Trump, the autocratic governments of the right have all too frequently been favored by Republican foreign policy.

The most extreme curbs on liberties in the US in the last year occurred in states controlled by Democratic autocrat Governors .

. Any ordinary reading of the Amendment clearly reserves guns to a militia, but that has repeatedly been discarded as untrue due to the financial power and influence of the gun lobby.

The role of the militia in the time of the framing has been explained plenty of times . It makes zero sense to conclude that an amendment constructed as an individuals defense against tyranny would reserve the right of gun ownership to a militia that acts in accordance to the government direction .

[jlisenbe]

A neighbor/homeowner (safe neighborhood) almost shot a woman neighbor in the head with his beloved revolver when she knocked on the door at 11 one night, needing two eggs for the cake she was baking.

How do you "almost" shoot someone?

The false premise being a certainty that eventually the government will take over and remove all freedoms and all liberties from the citizens


Having lived in a nation this last year where liberties were routinely violated under the guise of public health and welfare ; I have to question your premise .

Exactly correct.

The current working false premise is that all the killings are the result of the availability of guns. But if that was the case, then wouldn't everyone who owned a gun be shooting someone? The vast, vast majority of gun-owners don't shoot people. Why is that? Why does this very, very small minority of gun owners shoot people when the vast majority do not? When you think that through, you will have a legitimate premise to work from.

Everything else is just a smoke screen. All the talk about eighteenth century thinking, militias, anarchy, and indian massacres has nothing to do with it.

[Wondergirl]

How do you "almost" shoot someone?

He was standing in the entryway at the as-yet-unopened door, had cocked the hammer, and was ready to shoot the "intruder" in the head after opening the door.

[Athos]

Having lived in a nation this last year where liberties were routinely violated under the guise of public health and welfare ; I have to question your premise .

It's ok to question my premise, but I don't think a public health crisis with over 500,000 dead Americans is a "guise". Crazy Rep Jordan (R) shouted at Dr. Faucci that it was an attack on liberty. Faucci calmly replied it was a matter of public health, not an attack on liberty. That is about as obvious as anything. Jordan proves my thesis.

The most extreme curbs on liberties in the US in the last year occurred in states controlled by Democratic autocrat Governors .

By "extreme curbs" do you mean wearing masks and various lockdowns in order to preserve lives? Those Democratic "autocrat" governors were trying to save lives. As of today, look at the vaccination rates of Dem and Rep governed states.

The role of the militia in the time of the framing has been explained plenty of times

This is NOT the time of the framing. It is TWO CENTURIES+ later!

It makes zero sense to conclude that an amendment constructed as an individuals defense against tyranny would reserve the right of gun ownership to a militia that acts in accordance to the government direction .

Again, you are supporting my thesis that the gun lobby's fear is all about government tyranny, not any patriotic adherence to the Second Amendment.

[tomder55]

This is NOT the time of the framing. It is TWO CENTURIES+ later!

Then by all means repeal the 2nd amendment if you find it outdate . Let's see how far you get with that .

It makes zero sense to conclude that an amendment constructed as an individuals defense against tyranny would reserve the right of gun ownership to a militia that acts in accordance to the government direction .

Again, you are supporting my thesis that the gun lobby's fear is all about government tyranny, not any patriotic adherence to the Second Amendment.

Why would a fear of a tyrannical government not be patriotic ? When people fear government there is tyranny . Here is the reverse . When government fears the people there is liberty . The word patriotism is perverted when it is said to mean unquestioned support of the government . The Second Amendment is about self-defense. It's about being able to stop people who would do you harm, whether that's a criminal or the government.

[jlisenbe]

He was standing in the entryway at the as-yet-unopened door, had cocked the hammer, and was ready to shoot the "intruder" in the head after opening the door.

Why did he not shoot?

Is that similar to the story of the woman who was awakened at 11:00 by an intruder. She lived in Chicago and so was not allowed by the government to have a handgun. The male intruder, who was armed with only a knife, tied her up, raped her, raped her 13 year old daughter, and then strangled both of them to death.

The case was never solved.

[Wondergirl]

Why did he not shoot?

Because I shouted "Wait!" as I ran in from the kitchen to open the door and reveal our neighbor standing on the porch.

[jlisenbe]

Because I shouted "Wait!" as I ran in from the kitchen to open the door and reveal our neighbor standing on the porch.

Then you guys need training on how to defend yourselves in your own home. Identifying a potential target BEFORE you even think about shooting is a basic rule. But suppose the neighbor had been a home invader? What then?

What about the poor woman and her daughter?

[Wondergirl]

Then you guys need training on how to defend yourselves in your own home.

Not in this neighborhood.

Identifying a potential target BEFORE you even think about shooting is a basic rule. But suppose the neighbor had been a home invader? What then?

He had a potential target. Home invaders don't knock.

What about the poor woman and her daughter?

That story is not at all similar to mine.

[Athos]

Then by all means repeal the 2nd amendment if you find it outdate . Let's see how far you get with that .

We both know that won't happen - the gunners have done an excellent job of ensuring it.

Here is the reverse . When government fears the people there is liberty

The government (US) does not fear the people (well, except for Jan 6). The government is there by the consent of the governed. Small arms are hardly a defense against a tyrannical government.

Patriotism is supporting the principles upon which our government was founded.

Different subject - Climate Change.

I read your post. Here's a question. Why are climate scientists near unanimous in warning about climate change? For that matter, why are mostly all scientists?

[jlisenbe]

Here is the reverse . When government fears the people there is liberty

Exactly correct, as the Germans discovered to their dismay in the 1930's.

Patriotism is supporting the principles upon which our government was founded.

You mean like the second amendment?

[talaniman]

No there doesn't. That's why your statement is ridiculous. You are taking very isolated, very rare occurrences and trying to portray them as the norm. It's a completely foolish and wildly inaccurate approach. It's the same as if I met two dumb Aussies and then decided that all Aussies must be dumb.

Multiple deaths from shootings happen every day in America, and the few get attention and hardly considered rare.

2020 Saw More Gun Deaths in the US Than Any Year in Over Two Decades (businessinsider.com)

But many experts say that defining mass shootings based on how many are shot rather than the number killed offers a fuller picture of the scale of gun violence in the US. It also helps highlight incidents that generally don't make headlines and disproportionately impact Black Americans and people of color. Public mass shootings also account for just a fraction of total gun deaths in the US, and focusing on them can lead to myopic perspectives on gun violence.

.AND about Chicago, Ill.

Gun Laws in Chicago - Feldman Criminal Defense

Though it is possible to obtain guns illegally, Chicago gun laws exist to regulate the sale, possession, and use of firearms and ammunition in the state of Illinois. In order to possess firearms or ammunition, residents of Illinois must apply for and obtain a Firearm Owners Identification (FOID) card issued by Illinois State Police. The state police are also responsible for issuing concealed carry licenses to qualified applicants aged 21 or older who pass a 16-hour training course.

[paraclete]

complacency won't solve anything

[tomder55]

Why are climate scientists near unanimous in warning about climate change? For that matter, why are mostly all scientists?

I don't deny the fact that climate is changing . I question the premise that it is totally AGW . Even if it is ;what is the solution except adapting to the change ? Do you think humans will go carbon neutral in our lifetime ? And even if we did ;climate change is happening anyway .
My bumper sticker says "Climate Change Happens " .

Warming happened from 950 to apx 1250 . It was a good time for European humans . Crops were plentiful The Norse explored North America .

It grew very cold prior to the industrial revolution between the 13th century and the 19th .There were ice festivals on the Thames . People could walk across the ice from Staten Island to Manhattan in the winter . It was called the Little Ice Age . Glaciers have been retreating since the Ice Age .

I'm not saying that humans have not contributed to the change . I just ask ;what can realistically be done about it ? Human energy needs are growing as more humans demand the benefits of a 21st century life style . I'm all in with alternatives once they prove they can deliver . For now ;carbon based energy is the only reliable one outside of nukes .

[paraclete]

I'm with you Tom the retreat from nuclear is a disgrace

[talaniman]

Then by all means repeal the 2nd amendment if you find it outdate . Let's see how far you get with that .

How about some reasonable updates like MOST Americans want outside of elected officials and the bankrupted corrupt gun lobby?

Why would a fear of a tyrannical government not be patriotic ? When people fear government there is tyranny . Here is the reverse . When government fears the people there is liberty . The word patriotism is perverted when it is said to mean unquestioned support of the government . The Second Amendment is about self-defense. It's about being able to stop people who would do you harm, whether that's a criminal or the government.

Or a bad cop!