[hheath541]

Hi Wondergirl

I believe the Bible is accurate when it comes to heaven and hell.

Apparently St. Thomas addressed the problem in the Middle Ages. Even more amazing is the fact that some physicists have actually attempt to work out the number of angles that would fit on the point of a needle.
I am not sure if they allowed room for dancing in their calculations.

Based on this one would assume that heaven and hell are extremely tiny places.


Tut

And what about the angels that visited people in the bible? Either they're hugely oversized giants or they can shrink a LOT!

[Wondergirl]

the number of angles that would fit on the point of a needle

Please be careful when spelling. They are angels, not angles. Otherwise, we end up doing geometry, not theology.

And I think it was the head of a pin, not the point of a needle -- big difference and the wrong end of a sewing tool (I have been hemming my dresses and skirts since I was 7, and won prizes for my 4-H Club sewing at the county fair).

Now, what were you saying?

***ADDED*** My apologies, dear Tut. According to straightdope.com, "According to unimpeachable sources, it's not how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, it's how many can do it on the point of a needle — which, of course, makes more sense. Second, the earliest citation I can find is from a book by Ralph Cudworth in the 17th century, which is suspiciously late in the day."

The entire article about what and why is found by clicking this link --

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-head-of-a-pin

[TUT317]

and what about the angels that visited people in the bible? either they're hugely oversized giants or they can shrink a LOT!

Hi Heath,

What I am saying is of course highly speculative at best. However, I would SPECULATE and say that Michael Talbot in the "Holographic Universe" comes up with an answer. Our problem is that we live in a world of four dimensions. Talbot say that the Andromeda Galaxy exists so many light years from earth. It also exists in the thumb nail of our right hand.

Tut

[hheath541]

Hi Heath,

What I am saying is of course highly speculative at best. However, I would SPECULATE and say that Michael Talbot in the "Holographic Universe" comes up with an answer. Our problem is that we live in a world of four dimensions. Talbot say that the Andromeda Galaxy exists so many light years from earth. It also exists in the thumb nail of our right hand.

Tut

So distance becomes such a great factor that size ceases to matter? Or, something that exists outside the confines of time (such as a divine being) also exists outside the confines of physical matter and, therefore, size?

[TUT317]

so distance becomes such a great factor that size ceases to matter? or, something that exists outside the confines of time (such as a divine being) also exists outside the confines of physical matter and, therefore, size?

Hi again Heath,

Good point.

From my understanding of Talbot he makes no reference to any divine being. He attempts to explain his ideas in terms of physical science. He draws on on a number of prominent physicists from the past . He also draws on quantum mechanics. As far as I can remember there is no supernatural explanation that is offered by Talbot.

Regards

Tut

[hheath541]

I think I'll have to try to find his book. It sounds interesting. I love theoretical/philosophical discussions.

[TUT317]

i think i'll have to try to find his book. it sounds interesting. i love theoretical/philosophical discussions.

Heath

It is one of the best books I have ever read. I have read a few in my life.

Regards

Tut

[classyT]

hmmm...i was unaware the catholic church possessed that level of power. whodathunk?

Hheath, (WG too)
When I said "biblical truths" in my agree to YOU hheath... I do NOT agree we are EVER in limbo. My point was you can't add and subtract stuff from the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn't really have that power. If scripture teaches we can be in limbo... or pergatory, or any of that, then that is what it teaches. NO institution, denomination has the right to change that. The bible just doesn't teach it. Did that make any sense at all?. if not.. nevermind.

[hheath541]

Hheath, (WG too)
When I said "biblical truths" in my agree to YOU hheath ...i do NOT agree we are EVER in limbo. My point was you can't add and subtract stuff from the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn't really have that power. If scripture teaches we can be in limbo ....or pergatory, or any of that, then that is what it teaches. NO institution, denomination has the right to change that. The bible just doesn't teach it. Did that make any sense at all?.....if not..nevermind.

It made perfect sense. The catholic church has been trying to control things for centuries. Hell, the finally admitted the earth was round in the 1960's, like their admission finally made it official.

I think they spent far too much time making proclamations. Religion shouldn't have anything to do with grand speeches and official announcements.

[classyT]

Hello? The answer is: NONE! Everybody knows dancing is a sin!!!!!! Duh!

:D:D:D

Fo sho... and watching me try to do the "stinky leg" or" stanky lag" (as my son pronounces it) is proof if it ISN'T a sin... I sure oughtta be. :D


My son tried to teach me... not only does HE look utterly ridiculous, I look WORSE. GOT to be a sin...

[classyT]

Lake of fire?

If there is a hell, I believe it will be tailor-made for each individual.

Based on..

[Aurora_Bell]

Umm Classy Don't you remember that Simpsons when he had to continuously eat doughnuts and it starts as something he likes but soon realizes it's not so fun??


:D

[JoeCanada76]

Second Esdras 7. 75 - 101

State of the Dead before Judgment.

I answered and said, "If I found favor in your sight, o lord, Show this also to your servant: whether after death, as soon as one of us yields up the soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when you will renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?

He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not include yourself with those who have shown scorn, or number yourself among those who are tormented. For you have a treasure of works stored up with the Most High, but it will not be shown to you until the last times. Now concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone out from the Most High that a person shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. If it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, Who have despised his law and hated those who fear God - such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, always grieving and sad, in seven ways.

The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High. The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance so that they may live. The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. The firth way, they shall see how the habitations the others of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will cross over into torments. The seventh way, which is worse then all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the most High in whose presence they sinned while they were alive, and in whose presence they are to be judged in the last times.

Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body. During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour so that they might keep the law of the lawgiver perfectly. Therefore this is the teaching concerning them. First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders. The first order, because they have striven with great effort to over come the evil thought that was formed with them, so that it might not lead them astray from life into death. The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander and the punishment that was them. The third order they see the witness that he who formed them bears concerning them, that through out their life they kept the law with which they were entrusted. The fourth order, they understood the rest that they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory waiting for them in the last days. The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what's corruptible and shall inherit what is to come and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty that they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. The sixth order, when it is shown them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on. The seventh order, which is greater then all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion and shall be glad without fear, for they press forward to see the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.

This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the previously mentioned are the ways of the torment that those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter.

Then I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?'

He said to me, 'They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterward they shall be gathered in their habitations.'

[classyT]

Joe,
Going to be gone for a few days so I have to read this and get back to you.

Bella,

What? Are you suggesting me aggravating WG is somehow becoming... not fun? Sorry. :( But she insists I clarify myself... packback is a...





Drag. :D

[TUT317]

Please be careful when spelling. They are angels, not angles. Otherwise, we end up doing geometry, not theology.


The entire article about what and why is found by clicking this link --

The Straight Dope: Did medieval scholars argue over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?

Hi Wondergirl

Thanks for pointing out the error. Perhaps I would be better off trying to do geometry. I read the article you suggested above.

It does say that one of the problems St. Thomas addresses is the possibility that two angles can occupy the same space. Apparently the answer he came up with is in line with modern physics. According to the Pauli exclusion principle the probability of two electrons occupying the same space is zero.

Probably a bit of useless trivia.

Regards

Tut

[Wondergirl]

It does say that one of the problems St. Thomas addresses is the possibility that two angles can occupy the same space.

Angles?

[Aurora_Bell]

Joe,
gonna be gone for a few days so i have to read this and get back to you.

Bella,

what? are you suggesting me aggravating WG is somehow becoming...not fun? Sorry. :( But she insists I clarify myself...packback is a .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......








Drag. :D

LOL God no! I was saying that Hell is specific to the individual... taylor made. For WG Hell is waiting in line and never getting to the cashier for Hheath it's kitty litter and un litter trained cats, you know what I mean?

[dwashbur]

LOL God no! I was saying that Hell is specific to the individual...taylor made. For WG Hell is waiting in line and never getting to the cashier for Hheath it's kitty litter and un litter trained cats, you know what I mean??

For me it could be an eternity of polka music...

[Wondergirl]

For WG Hell is waiting in line and never getting to the cashier

For WG, HEAVEN is waiting in line and chatting with all the others waiting there too. It's my HUSBAND who thinks Hell is waiting in line.

In other words, my Heaven is his Hell.

[TUT317]

angles?

Hi Wondergirl

There is nothing wrong with me. I know that three angels always add up to 180 degs.

Regards

Tut