[arcura]

dwashbur,
I'm sure that we are all glad and happy that you are here.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[elscarta]

ClassyT,
People can be filled with God's Spirit but there is a big difference between God being spiritually with someone and God being physically with someone.

The main place in the Old Testament where we see God being physically present is with Moses in Exodus where he built the Tabernacle in which God dwelt amongst His people.

The following link describes the Holy of Holies, God's dwelling place in the Tabernacle. God only came down and physically dwelt with His people after a very special place was built and sanctified.

Sixteen chapters in Exodus (25 - 40) are written about the preparation of the Tabernacle so God could come down and dwell amongst His people and yet you think that no preparation was necessary for where Jesus was to come into this world, Mary's womb!

[elscarta]

The scriptures repeat over and over that there is NONE righteous NO NOT ONE.

Actually you are wrong. Scripture does NOT repeat over and over the above. It only occurs once in Romans 3:10 and you have isolated it from the rest of the passage with which it clearly belongs.

Romans 3:10-12
As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

If you insist that NONE are righteous then you must also insist that NONE understand, NONE seek God, ALL have turned away and NONE do good NO NOT ONE!
Is this really what you believe?

This is obviously an example of where Paul uses hyperbole, exaggeration for emphasis or effect!

[Wondergirl]

If you insist that NONE are righteous then you must also insist that NONE understand, NONE seek God, ALL have turned away and NONE do good NO NOT ONE!
Is this really what you believe?

That's what I believe too. No hyperbole here. (Some of your verbs are incorrect in number though.)

[dwashbur]

That's what I believe too. No hyperbole here. (Some of your verbs are incorrect in number though)

And Paul is quoting Isaiah, so Scripture does in fact declare it more than once.

[arcura]

elscarta,
Notice Soloman's Temple and it's holy of holies.
It was specially built for God to be with His people there.
Only a selected priest could go in and he had a rope tied to his foot so that if he dies in there he could be pulled out. On one could go in to get him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[elscarta]

That's what I believe too. No hyperbole here.

Genesis 6:9
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Job 12:4
"I have become a laughingstock to my friends, though I called upon God and he answered— a mere laughingstock, though righteous and blameless!
Matthew 1:19
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
Mark 6:20
Because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled ; yet he liked to listen to him.
Luke 2:25
Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Acts 10:22
The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
2 Peter 2:7
And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

As you can see from the above quotes, there are a number of people who Scripture states as being righteous:
Noah, Job, Joseph, John, Simeon, Cornelius, Abel and Lot.

Furthermore there are many more references to "the righteous" without referring to a particular individual. So to continually insist that "NONE are righteous" is not a hyperbole is contrary to Scripture!

[arcura]

elscarta,
You have made a very good point.
Now since many believe that there are no conflicts in Holy Scripture how does one explain the difficulty between NO righteous and righteous persons?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[elscarta]

And Paul is quoting Isaiah, so Scripture does in fact declare it more than once.

Dwasbur,
I cannot find any reference in Isaiah to the above. My NIV Bible cross references Romans 3:10 with Ecclesiastes 7:20

Ecclesiastes 7:20
There is not a righteous man on earth
Who does what is right and never sins.

Romans 3:10

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;

Paul did not quote scripture, he paraphrased what was written and clearly exaggerated what was written by adding "not even one" and dropping the "does what is right and never sins".

The scriptures repeat over and over that there is NONE righteous NO NOT ONE.

Even if you believe that Ecclesiastes 7:20 says the same thing as Romans 3:10 this is only two times NOT "repeated over and over".
I find it quite ironic that classyT uses hyperbole to get her point across about what Paul meant in Romans 3:10 and yet people deny that Paul used hyperbole when he clearly did!

[dwashbur]

dwasbur,
I cannot find any reference in Isaiah to the above. My NIV Bible cross references Romans 3:10 with Ecclesiastes 7:20

Ecclesiastes 7:20
There is not a righteous man on earth
who does what is right and never sins.

Romans 3:10

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;

Paul did not quote scripture, he paraphrased what was written and clearly exaggerated what was written by adding "not even one" and dropping the "does what is right and never sins".



Even if you believe that Ecclesiastes 7:20 says the same thing as Romans 3:10 this is only two times NOT "repeated over and over".
I find it quite ironic that classyT uses hyperbole to get her point across about what Paul meant in Romans 3:10 and yet people deny that Paul used hyperbole when he clearly did!

My mistake; it's actually Psalm 14, which is repeated in Psalm 53. He quotes Isaiah a little further down in the development part. So it is in fact repeated over and over; with the Ecclesiastes reference that's at least four. And Psalm 53:3 does say "not even one."

That's what I get for using the LTMLV.

[Wondergirl]

Furthermore there are many more references to "the righteous" without referring to a particular individual. So to continually insist that "NONE are righteous" is not a hyperbole is contrary to Scripture!

That has nothing to do with the "none is righteous" statement. You are comparing apples and oranges.

[Athos]

That has nothing to do with the "none is righteous" statement. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I disagree. elscarta's point is precisely on target.

[dwashbur]

That has nothing to do with the "none is righteous" statement. You are comparing apples and oranges.

It's playing with words, nothing more. It should be obvious that the word "righteous" has more than one meaning in the Bible, but there are those who can't acknowledge that.

[classyT]

And Paul is quoting Isaiah, so Scripture does in fact declare it more than once.

:) :) and a great big hug... I was going to say it but you did first. Sciprture is just so clear on this topic it hard to believe it could be agrued. I would have given you a great big greenie but I must spread the love first. People could start to talk though... imagine a dispensationalist, pretribber, fundy like me agreeing so much with you a guy with a screwed up theology. Go FiGer... :D

[classyT]

Genesis 6:9
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Job 12:4
"I have become a laughingstock to my friends, though I called upon God and he answered— a mere laughingstock, though righteous and blameless!
Matthew 1:19
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
Mark 6:20
because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled ; yet he liked to listen to him.
Luke 2:25
Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Acts 10:22
The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
2 Peter 2:7
and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

As you can see from the above quotes, there are a number of people who Scripture states as being righteous:
Noah, Job, Joseph, John, Simeon, Cornelius, Abel and Lot.

Furthermore there are many more references to "the righteous" without referring to a particular individual. So to continually insist that "NONE are righteous" is not a hyperbole is contrary to Scripture!

Faith was why the Lord looked on these guys as righteous they were good men who loved and feard God. Not the same kind of righteous as the Lord Jesus. I am the righteousness of Christ. And trust me, I have sinned... I was born that way... can't help it. Just like all the rest.

Incidentally I was thinking about Mary being sinless ( born without a sin nature) why did she die? We know why the Lord Jesus did. He was crucified. And even THEN HE gave up the ghost on account of him being GOD. He was in total control of His spirit leaving Him.

But if Mary was without sin, she should be alive and well... and what? About 2000 plus years old. It is being born a sinner that causes us to physically die... part of the curse on mankind after Adam's sin. So where is she?? I'm just saying...

[Wondergirl]

I disagree. elscarta's point is precisely on target.

I disagree. The lack of righteousness in "none is righteous" is the umbrella type. This is the lack of righteousness (the human condition, Christianity calls it original sin) that will, without a Savior, consign all of us to everlasting oblivion or hell or whatever Extreme Negative Destiny there will be after death.

The other kind of righteousness of Noah et al. is a personal goodness that rose above the human condition, a righteousness that God noticed and acknowledged.

As dwashbur said, it's playing with words -- one word with shades of meaning, like the word "love": "I love pizza" and "I love my mother."

[Wondergirl]

But if Mary was without sin, she should be alive and well.... and what? about 2000 plus years old. It is being born a sinner that causes us to physically die...part of the curse on mankind after Adam's sin. So where is she???? I'm just sayin......

The Assumption of Mary, the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her life, was an instance of papal infallibility by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950.

[classyT]

WG,

Good to know. I was wondering what the heck happened to her.. ;)

[Wondergirl]

WG,

Good to know. I was wonderin what the heck happened to her..;)

I'm surprised it took that long after Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary (that she was conceived as sinless). Where was she until 1950?

[Athos]

I'm surprised it took that long after Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary (that she was conceived as sinless). Where was she until 1950?

She was hangin' out with the Lutherans trying to shape 'em up.

(Actually, her Assumption took place a long time ago when she shook off this mortal coil back in Palestine or wherever. Btw, she was assumed body and SOUL, so she did not pass through purgatory).