[elscarta]

As JoeT has already pointed out in a previous post, see below for the relevant extract, Mary was sinless because according to the Law of Moses, given to him by God, God can only reside in a ritually purified Tabernacle. In a way God had no choice in the matter, He had to work within the very Laws that He gave to the Jewish people.

At the moment Christ was conceived God was infused; at that moment Mary’s womb must be spiritually clean; as clean as any ritually cleaned Tabernacle of Moses. Remember, Christ first ministry was the Hebrew and thus must be identifiable by the Jew – a Jew would not recognize a God that didn’t live in a ritually purified Tabernacle.

It’s important that Christ be perceived as ‘infused,’ as opposed to conjoin or thought of as an injection of God into man. Thus we hold the Blessed Virgin Mary’s womb as the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant. This Tabernacle would (and must) remain pure even after the Ark has been removed, thus did the Virgin Mary remain celibate in her life. This is because, she is literally full of grace, full of God; would we, (or could we), expect less. Would the Jewish Nation accept a Paschal Lamb any less than spotless, less flawless?

[elscarta]

Got a questin for you Elscarta. Why is Enoch the only one you mention that didn't see death. Elijah too was taken up. Is there a reason you only mention Enoch? Just curious.

No. Can you know answer my question regarding Enoch, you mentioned spiritual death, but as I have stated before Enoch was not separated from God as he walked with God, so I don't see him as being spiritually dead.

[Wondergirl]

WG,

Please reread my last post. I managed to post it before I was finished writing it. Oh, well I am but mortal.

Doesn't that just drive you nuts? It does me. I write something and post, read it in its posted form and then think, "Oh, I should have said this" or "I have to add that" or "Uh oh, three typos." By then, someone has quoted my original post before all my glorious additions and improvements and correction of typos. *sigh*

Again I say, If God could chose a sinful person God could also have chosen to create a sinless person. God's will, God's decision.

And that's one of the bones of contention between Catholic and Protestant (as you have said).

I ask you, what would set Mary apart from all the other sinful females at that particular time and space to hold His/Her Son within her and nature the new born babe.

Why didn't God create a sinless King David or Apostle Paul?

Why would she be chosen so dramatically and within that still be given the opportunity to say no. if she was not different from the norm. I mean why didn't God pick Jane or Barbara or even Alice?

There was something about Mary. The Gospel writers don't really explain in detail or say much about what it was. She obviously had caught God's eye with her attitude and behavior -- something we all can attempt to emulate.

[Wondergirl]

I am saying that my position is as valid as yours.

But my position makes a lot of sense, don't you agree?

[Wondergirl]

Why would she be chosen so dramatically and within that still be given the opportunity to say no. if she was not different from the norm. I mean why didn't God pick Jane or Barbara or even Alice?

What if she would have told God no? She was sinless, might have said "No thanks, God -- I do not want to drink from that cup," and then what? If she had been born sinless, was she obliged to say yes to God?

[classyT]

WG -

Okay, the point I was going after was that your point is valid about God working with a sinful vessel then my point about God working with a sinless vessel is equally valid because God pretty much does as He/She sees fit.

I know that for me God often moves in my world but rarely in the way I tell Him/Her.

?? Am I the only one here that believes that God will NEVER go against His word? He is never going to do anything contrary to his word. The Bible says man was doomed and without hope after the fall of Adam. He can't make an exception. It is what it IS. If the sin issue could have been fixed and he could make Mary sinless then why didn't he just make us ALL sinless. Why did Jesus have to die? I don't GET THIS. The reasoning here baffles me. Sinful natures begat sinful natures, begats sinful natures. If MARY was sinless why didn't he just use HER redeem mankind.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

There just is NOTHING in the word of God that even implies Mary was sinless. Quite the contrary.

[classyT]

No. Can you know answer my question regarding Enoch, you mentioned spiritual death, but as I have stated before Enoch was not separated from God as he walked with God, so I don't see him as being spiritually dead.

Hebrews says his faith was counted to him as righteousness.. he pleased God. It was his faith in God. But it doesn't mean he wasn't born spirtually dead.

[Wondergirl]

If the sin issue could have been fixed and he could make Mary sinless then why didn't he just make us ALL sinless.

Interesting train of thought... God is omnipotent. Why didn't He?

[classyT]

As JoeT has already pointed out in a previous post, see below for the relevant extract, Mary was sinless because according to the Law of Moses, given to him by God, God can only reside in a ritually purified Tabernacle. In a way God had no choice in the matter, He had to work within the very Laws that He gave to the Jewish people.

In Ephesians Paul says we were sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed. I was a sinner, I am a sinner and until the Lord Jesus comes and raptures me (pretrib.. ha ha) I will BE a sinner. He LIVES IN ME.

Then consider this verses to:

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16)

and there are many many more so that line of thinking ain't cutting it.

God couldn't fix the sin problem by making anyone sinless. Adam messed that up already. Good grief, good gravy and good golly girdy... God is no respecter of persons, if he could have made Mary sinless he would have made ALL of us that way (after the fall of Adam. Why would he send His son to the cross?

[classyT]

Interesting train of thought.... God is omnipotent. Why didn't He?

Because he already told Adam if he ate of the tree what was going to be set into motion - what would happen. He won't go back on his word. He can't.

[arcura]

classyT,
You are very right about that. God's word is perfect and he will not change it
Keep in mind that the WORD of God became flesh in the name of Jesus Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[elscarta]

In Ephesians Paul says we were sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed. I was a sinner, I am a sinner and until the Lord Jesus comes and raptures me (pretrib..ha ha) I will BE a sinner. He LIVES IN ME.

Then consider this verses to:

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16)

and there are many many more so that line of thinking ain't cuttin it.

God couldn't fix the sin problem by making anyone sinless. Adam messed that up already. Good grief, good gravy and good golly girdy.... God is no respecter of persons, if he could have made Mary sinless he would have made ALL of us that way (after the fall of Adam. Why would he send His son to the cross?

ClassyT,
What you have quoted deals with the New Covenant, you cannot use what happens under the New Covenant to discuss what should have happened under the Old Covenant!

When Mary was conceived, only the Old Covenant, The Law of Moses, was in place and "God will NEVER go against His word", Mary had to be made sinless otherwise God would be contradiciting the Laws that He gave to Moses.

Also note that when the RCC says that Mary was made sinless, it means that Mary was made free from the stain of "original sin" not that she was made without the ability to sin. God did not take away Mary's free will.

[elscarta]

What if she would have told God no? She was sinless, might have said "No thanks, God -- I do not want to drink from that cup," and then what? If she had been born sinless, was she obliged to say yes to God?

No she wasn't obliged to say yes, God did not take away her free will when He made her sinless, He simply did not let the stain of "original sin" touch her. She was capable of sinning but never did!

We do not need to concern ourselves with the "what if" since it did not happen. Also God knew that Mary would say yes in the same way as He knew that Judas would betray Jesus and that Peter would deny Him three times. In those cases, even though they, Judas and Peter, were foretold of their transgressions, they still freely chose to do them.

How do we know that? Judas committed suicide, i.e. blamed himself, rather than claiming that he did not have a choice. Peter wept bitterly, again showing that he blamed himself rather than claiming that he had no choice.

[arcura]

elscarta,
You are very right on that.
Well said and to the point.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Athos]

I tried to google this and couldn't find the answer. I recently learned that Catholics believe Mary was divine after she became pregnant with the Lord Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. My question is this...do Catholics believe that once the Pope is appointed to that positon HE becomes divine? If this is a stupid question then I apologize. I really am curious because I was reading an article where he is called The Holy Father. Not being raise catholic, I was stunned by that title.

No, it's not a stupid question, but it perfectly illustrates the bizarre notions that non-Catholics have about Catholics and the Catholic faith.

More stunning to me is the fact that you could grow to adulthood in this country without ever hearing "The Holy Father" employed as a reference to the pope.

[classyT]

ClassyT,
what you have quoted deals with the New Covenant, you cannot use what happens under the New Covenant to discuss what should have happened under the Old Covenant!

When Mary was conceived, only the Old Covenant, The Law of Moses, was in place and "God will NEVER go against His word", Mary had to be made sinless otherwise God would be contradiciting the Laws that He gave to Moses.

Also note that when the RCC says that Mary was made sinless, it means that Mary was made free from the stain of "original sin" not that she was made without the ability to sin. God did not take away Mary's free will.

God will NEVER go against his word. He is no respector of persons. If he can make Mary without original sin.. he could make us ALL that way. He could not because once Adam sinned... ALL of mankind and Womankind were doomed. It isn't our fault we are born sinners but we are AND if GOD could have fixed the problem by simply making us without original sin.. well THEN he would have. Why send Jesus to the cross... to take care of sin, when all he had to do is reverse it like he did with Mary? He is NO respecter of persons. THAT idea goes against what God has said.

So if you don't like my NT quotes of the Holy Spirit dwelling in believers how's about this one:


Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby jumped in her womb. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit ( note that was ELIZABETH filled with the Holy Spirit right then... not Mary.) Is God going against his laws here.. this is OT covenant. Or maybe Elizabeth too was sinless.

Also consider what Mary has to say: Luke 1:47

and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior

If Mary was sinles... why did she need a savior?? Interesting huh?


Give me ONE verse in Genesis through Revelation that says Mary was without original sin. It is a PRETTY BIG deal... the bible should at LEAST mention it.

The scriptures repeat over and over that there is NONE righteous NO NOT ONE. For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

Only the Lord Jesus who is GOD... He and ONLY He is without sin. He ( Jesus) who knew no sin was made sin for us. The Bible is CLEAR as crystal. He is the ONLY one.

[Wondergirl]

No, it's not a stupid question, but it perfectly illustrates the bizarre notions that non-Catholics have about Catholics and the Catholic faith.

... as do Catholics about Protestants.

That's why this board is so important. Here we all have the opportunity to discuss both our similarities and our differences, and be able to ask questions.

[classyT]

No, it's not a stupid question, but it perfectly illustrates the bizarre notions that non-Catholics have about Catholics and the Catholic faith.

More stunning to me is the fact that you could grow to adulthood in this country without ever hearing "The Holy Father" employed as a reference to the pope.

I wasn't raised in a catholic church and what I have learned about the Catholic church I've learned mostly right here on askmehelpdesk.

Most of the catholics I have encountered in my life have been by name ONLY. Some have actually believed there are many paths to God and that Jesus is just one of them. So I think it is COOL to talk with true Catholics who know what they believe and why they believe it. I respect it.

More importantly there are many people in this country who haven't heard the gospel, and if they have heard it didn't understand it. And even more STUNNING is the millions that still haven't heard the name of Jesus all over this world. So...

Heck, I stun my husband everyday with my lack of knowledge just ask him. I couldn't help my boys in elementary math... because I can't add fractions. Baffles me?. does not compute. Stuns my boys. So you see, stunning people "in my adulthood" is what I do best. Go figure. Incidentally being a tiny bit unkind and slightly put out by NON Catholics questions is what YOU do best. But HEY.. we all have our gifts. :D

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I fully agree with you that being able to discus, question and answer about Catholics and other faiths is one of the most important aspects of this board.
We can thus learn from each other and reach a much better understanding of each other.
Doing that helps unit us against the anti-Christian and anti-God worlds.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[dwashbur]

Wondergirl,
I fully agree with you that being able to discus, question and answer about Catholics and other faiths is one of the most important aspects of this board.
We can thus learn from each other and reach a much better understanding of each other.
Doing that helps unit us against the anti-Christian and anti-God worlds.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Finding this board is one of the best things that's happened to me in the past year or so, and for precisely that reason.