[JoeT777]

It would be great if you understood the quote presented as being Pope Benedict's; but it's not the Pope's. However, it makes a strong case for Catholics to identify with the “mother” Church, living in communion, to view the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. It's a conversation by Deacon Keith A. Fournier written May 22, 2009 at Catholic Online. I'm afraid that somehow you mistook the Deacon's words for the Pope's. Atually, it appears you've taken quotes from two different articles. No foul, but in full fairness to Fournier the following is the full article not quoted. It should be read in context. (Forgive me for the long post – emphases are mine):

Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord
By Deacon Keith A. Fournier, 5/22/2009 Catholic Online (www.catholic.org)

The early fathers, Saints and Councils throughout the ages have all affirmed; to belong to Jesus is to belong to His Body.


To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

CHESAPEAKE, Va. (Catholic Online) - “Let us love the Lord our God; let us love His Church… Let us love Him as our Father and her as our mother” (St. Augustine) "No one can have God as his Father who does not have the Church as his Mother” (St. Cyprian) “For where the Church is, there the Spirit of God is also; and where the Spirit of God is, there the Church is, and all grace. And the Spirit is truth.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons)

“There is no plan B” I said to my evangelical Protestant friend. “The Lord has not changed His mind. His work continues through His Body, His Church, of which we are all members through our Baptism”. This exchange came at the end of a lengthy conversation initiated by him. He was hungering for a deeper life, in his words, “in the Lord.”

A long time participant in the pro-life movement, he was first touched by the writings of Pope John Paul II and is a real fan of his successor, Pope Benedict XVI. He is moved by the Pro-Life witness of so many Catholics. He asked me some serious questions that day. I spoke to him of the theology of communion that is the heart of Catholic ecclesiology. I could see in his eyes the interest that will lead him even more deeply along the path I have witnessed so many others walk.

This encounter is happening frequently these days. I have spent much of my own public ministry in friendship and fellowship with evangelical Protestant Christians. There is a growing respect for the Catholic Church among many of our friends. For some, they have lived in an almost “Church-less” experience of Christianity; one that has so emphasized a “personal relationship” with Jesus (a vitally important truth) that often they have not experienced the “horizontal bar” of the Cross, the real implications of belonging to His Body in ecclesial communion.

However, they are not alone. How many Catholics understand the implications of their own Baptism? How many have experienced identification with the Church as a “mother”, or living in the Church as a “communion”? How many have come to perceive the Church as “Some – One” more than some-thing? Is this all supposed to only be the experience of the “mystics”, the talk of the Saints and Fathers, or, is it supposed to be the truly common experience of every Christian? I believe it is supposed to be the common experience of all Christians.

In Catholic theology we teach what the early fathers, Saints and Councils throughout the ages have all affirmed; to belong to Jesus is to belong to His Body. Our membership in the Church is a participation in the life of God; what the Apostle Peter referred to as a “participation in the Divine nature”. (2 Peter 1:4) We speak of our Christian friends in other Christian communities who have been validly baptized in accordance with a Trinitarian formula as already being in “imperfect communion” with the Church. This is why Catholics do not “re-baptize” a Christian from another community who comes into the Catholic Church. We speak of them as coming into “full communion” because they are already joined to the one Church in an “imperfect” or incomplete communion.

The headlines are filled with stories concerning the evil participated in by some members of the Catholic Church over a period of time in Ireland. The report was issued after a nine year investigation. It has left that Nation and the Irish Church heartsick. In the beginning of the sexual abuse crisis in the United States Pope John Paul II rightly referred to the evil at the root as part of the “mystery of iniquity.” So it is in Ireland. There is a purification of the Church underway. This passage of the Gospel comes to mind “… nothing is hidden that will not be revealed.” And, “…what was spoken in secret will be shouted from the housetops”. (Mark 4:22, Mt. 10:26) This is not the first time in 2,000 years that evil has found its way even into religious communities set apart for service. Then, like now, it was revealed.

Such times of purification often come right before a great time of genuine renewal. Could we be in the beginning of a great new missionary age of the Church? Along with the purification there is also springtime. For example, the “ecclesial movements” are flourishing and there is movement toward a dynamically orthodox Catholic faith and life among the lay faithful. Christians believe in a linear timeline of God's plan in human history. This is all going somewhere; and that somewhere is into the fullness of Some One, Jesus Christ. In Him we are invited into the very life of the Trinitarian communion in the Church. Every man, woman and child on the face of the earth is invited. The Church is, as the early fathers used to say, the “world reconciled.”

Saul's encounter with Jesus on the way to Damascus is instructive. Saul was a known persecutor of the early Church when he heard Jesus ask that probing question “Why do you persecute me?”: “On his ... journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”” (Acts 9) Saul had never even met Jesus, at least during Our Lord's “earthly” ministry. He persecuted his followers. Yet, so identified was Jesus with His Church that He asked that question of Saul. Saul's response became the framework for his continuing conversion and apostolic mission. Jesus is still identified with His Church in our day.

The Church is not some “thing”, outside of us, which we try to “fix” or have our “issues” with. Through our Baptism the Church becomes our home, our mother, the place in which we now live our lives in Christ. That is not to say we do not sometimes have struggles with our mother. However, she always remains our mother. To perceive, receive and to live this reality requires a continuing and dynamic conversion. We are sons and daughters of the Church. In living our lives in her we carry forward in time the continuing redemptive mission of Jesus Christ who is the Head of His Body. In its treatment of this “mystery” of the Church, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

“845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood. [St. Augustine, Serm. 96, 7, 9: PL 38, 588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18, 118: PL 16, 297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21] [30, 953, 1219]”

This Church is both human and divine; thus her members still sin. Sometimes evil enters and rots her from within. However, she is still the means through which we participate in the life of God. To her has been entrusted the Sacraments and the Word, the gift of a teaching office and the very means of salvation. The Church is not an optional “extra” that we add on to our lives, she is our life, because we live in Christ. From his wounded side she was birthed at the tree of Calvary, the altar of the new world. Through faith we are invited, daily, into this mystery and by grace we come to comprehend and live it.

Let us pray for the victims of the horrid events which occurred in Ireland. Let us pray for the leaders of the Church and the faithful of that land which has given the world so many great Christian leaders like Patrick. Let us continue to love the Church enough to stay faithful and be a part of her purification and renewal in this time of travail. Like I said to my evangelical protestant friend, there is no “Plan B.” We are called to love the Church as we love the Lord.

Deacon Keith Fournier asks that you join with us and help in this vital mission by sending this article to your family, friends, and neighbors and adding our link (www.catholic.org) to your own website, blog or social network. Let us broadcast, we are PROUD TO BE CATHOLIC!
http://www.catholic.org/internationa...d=33615&page=1

JoeT

[Maggie 3]

sndbay, I would like to add this, Gal. 2:19, "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God."----

When we trust in Jesus and win eternel place at God's side, we don't violate the law or somehow get around it. Jesus fulfilled the whole law, and by identifing with Him in His
death and resurrection, we do to. (Not by man made laws)

Gal.2:20
"I have bee crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I live in the flesh I live by faith"...

The secret to the Christian life is to allow Jesus Christ to live in and through you, by faith when you invite and allow the Hoiy Spirit to work in your life, you become a vital
representative of Christ.

Gal. 3:3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The entire Christian experience is to be lived by faith, from beginning to end. We are
justified by grace though faith, we are sanctified by grace though faith, and we will be
glorified by grace though faith.

Gal. 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")

The law is a curse to us in that it condemns our sin and therefore condemns us.
Jesus, the sinless Son of God, accepted our rightful condemnation and the punishment
we deserved when He willing went to the cross.

We live by faith not by man made laws.

Blassings, Maggie 3

[sndbay]

It would be great if you understood the quote presented as being Pope Benedict's; but it's not the Pope's. However, it makes a strong case for Catholics to identify with the “mother” Church, living in communion, to view the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. It's a conversation by Deacon Keith A. Fournier written May 22, 2009 at Catholic Online. I'm afraid that somehow you mistook the Deacon's words for the Pope's. Atually, it appears you've taken quotes from two different articles. No foul, but in full fairness to Fournier the following is the full article not quoted. It should be read in context. (Forgive me for the long post – emphases are mine):

[INDENT]Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord
By Deacon Keith A. Fournier, 5/22/2009 Catholic Online (Catholic Online - Breaking News, World, U.S., Catholic, Diocese & Video News)

JoeT

I will respectfully acknowledge your reply with patiences. And redirect the facts by tolerance of good nature towards what was posted.

Joe according to what I have recently review that was written by the Pope Benedict, the members within the Body of Christ known as being baptized into the Catholic church denomination, are all sinners that can or may find newness of life by a ongoing call to conversion.

As Written concerning Pope Benedict, and the members within the body of Christ, known to be baptized into the Catholic Church...
Joe, you, instead of answering the questions, decided to posted some other online Catholic news release titled. (Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord )

I had addressed the one titled(Pope Benedict's 'Impelling Duty': Rebuild the Full and Visible Unity of the Church )By Deacon Keith Fournier 10/24/2009

Subject as to why I implied Pope Benedict's and His views


No further discussion is needed unless you care to answer the questions I originally posted.

[sndbay]

sndbay, I would like to add this, Gal. 2:19, "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God."----

Thank you Maggie, this is so true. We should boast of the Law of Faith, because the just shall live by faith. Those who walk in the Spirit, walk to follow Christ, and hear HIS Voice, do it all by ONE Faith.
(Gal 3:11 Romans 3:28 Romans 3:27)

We live by faith not by man made laws.

Blassings, Maggie 3

That is the point of this entire thread. Man does not increase members of the church, or their faith. But have shown they will attempt to decease us.

1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.



Man does not bring the revealed truth to our hearts, but can example a godly faith and love in conversation.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

All power was given unto Christ Jesus in heaven and earth. (Matthew 28:18) It is the Father in heaven that will quicken our mortal bodies and dwell in us (Romans 8:11)
We are to be all that we were created to be through the Spirit of Truth in Christ Jesus.

From the Jews being shown in deception from man as written in scripture teaching of (Jeremiah 17:5) and our Faith being foretold to trust in God (Jeremiah 17:7) because we will fall short if we follow man, and allow our heart an indication that we follow the ways of this earth rather then the will of God. (Jeremiaj 17:10)

Our Faith should rest in our Lord, and not in man. (Matthew 11:29)

And again from the scripture teaching offered in (1 Timothy 2:1 thr 3:13) that Fred mentioned about the church. Warning of causion in behavior, and how some turn away from truth, and overthrow Faith in One God to being a strange man following man.
The clear interpretation of strange man would be as scripture indicates as estranged with man. (Psalm 81:9)

We have but One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism, and One God and Father..

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus


~in Christ

[Maggie 3]

Thank you sndbay for sharing the truth and being here for us.
Love maggie 3

[JoeT777]

From what is presented by the Pope, the baptism you speak of within the Kingdom of God is actually the Church. Thus the Kingdom of God is made up of sinners? That find redemption through the instruments of HIS sacraments?

I don't understand, you cite several quotes and attribute them to the Pope; except the Pope didn't make these statements, they were comments made by Deacon Keith A. Fournier.

In any event yes the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church is made up of sinners; as is every church whether they wish to acknowledge it. Redemption is in Christ; thus being incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ (The Catholic Church). As Deacon Keith A. Fournier said, “there is no plan 'B'” And, as stated in Athanasius' creed, “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled [orthodoxy], without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.” (Quicunque vult).

As Written concerning Pope Benedict, and the members within the body of Christ, known to be baptized into the Catholic Church...

Joe, you, instead of answering the questions, decided to posted some other online Catholic news release titled. (Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord )

I had addressed the one titled(Pope Benedict's 'Impelling Duty': Rebuild the Full and Visible Unity of the Church )By Deacon Keith Fournier 10/24/2009

Subject as to why I implied Pope Benedict's and His views

No further discussion is needed unless you care to answer the questions I originally posted.

No you said “REFER Pope Benedict Quote:” One would expect what follows is a direct quote. It wasn't. What was quoted was written by Deacon Keith A. Fournier. These were his opinions. While I agree with them, they don't hold the same authority that a quote from the Pope would have. Furthermore you seemed to have quoted several lines from several different pieces written by Deacon Keith A. Fournier.

I'm proud that you have a high regard for your own patience and tolerance; but at least while enduring me please suffer us with truth.

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Thanks for posting that.
We should also keep in mind that when we pray The Lord's Prayer we are asking "thy kingdom come"
When Jesus taught that to his apostles The Church had not yet been established so he was teaching them to pray for it to come along later than at that time.
Now we do have The Church, the mystical body of Christ, here on earth so that part of the prayer has been answered and continues to be so
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

[sndbay]

In any event yes the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church is made up of sinners; as is every church whether or not they wish to acknowledge it.

Then I would ask you why Peter spoke these words that have said that all nations that work in righteousness, and fear God are accepted of God. Would you not agree that those working righteousness are not sinners, and those that hold a godly fear in God's hand of fire would be those that are not doing evil?

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The table that is prepared before all nations was Christ Jesus. His body and blood once and for all "Purged our sins", and set us free from the bondage of sin. Peter said, God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Why then would any church call people unclean when they have confess belief in Christ the begotten Son of God and acknowledge all He has given us?

Psalms 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The new covenant was establish by the body and blood of Christ. God's promise which is offered in One Faith. We are sanctified through Christ. We acknowledge that being sanctified by the body and blood of Christ, is by the hand of God who has begotten again through Christ to be in likeness of the seventh day in which God sanctified as Holy.

Whether we trust in God and walk in His light of rightoeusness depends on the individual's willingness to dead each day daily by not falling to temptation that surround them. Surrendering to do the will of God, and deny ourselves. The Holy Spirit is of righteousness within those sanctified. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

John 17:17-18-19 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Sinner Beware!
Hebrew 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

Hebrew 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If we say we need not follow, if we say we have no need of the forgiveness, then we decease ourselves. REPENT and confess our sins. Sin no more!

1 John 1:6-7-8-9 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son acleanseth us from all sin If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.

There is only One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. I speak no lies but what is written in the volume of the Book.

I'm proud that you have a high regard for your own patience and tolerance; but at least while enduring me please suffer us with truth.

JoeT

Are you waxed cold and unable to recognize my love for Christ Jesus, and His words of truth which is what I confess in One Faith?

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2 Timothy 3:12-13-14-15 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

No sinner can say they walks in the light of God

1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

~in Christ

[sndbay]

Joe,
Thanks for posting that.
We should also keep in mind that when we pray The Lord's Prayer we are asking "thy kingdom come"
When Jesus taught that to his apostles The Church had not yet been established so he was teaching them to pray for it to come along later than at that time.
Now we do have The Church, the mystical body of Christ, here on earth so that part of the prayer has been answered and continues to be so
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luke 11:10 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hear His Voice, in the volume of the Book

~in the Spirit

[gromitt82]

The scripture message, that men are cursed to trust man, would be a comparison to the commandment of having no other gods. To permit flesh/man to be the arm they reach to and follow, would be entering temptation.

Our Lord has promised to search the hearts of man. And in that search, Our Lord would see who man loves, what man treasures in life enough to make it the way of his life. What has man worked to achieve in his life.

I reference the scripture as truth of The Word, Prophecies Addressed to Jews

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

I try to follow Jesus for a VERY SIMPLE REASON. JESUS IS GOD INCARNATE AND HE CAME TO EARTH TO SAVE MANKIND AND SHOW US WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO REACH OUR SALVATION.

His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T.

Gromitt82

[sndbay]

I try to follow Jesus for a VERY SIMPLE REASON. JESUS IS GOD INCARNATE AND HE CAME TO EARTH TO SAVE MANKIND AND SHOW US WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO REACH OUR SALVATION.

His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T.

Gromitt82

I trust the History of the OT offers us wisdom and is referenced often in the NT. How God communicated in the OT with HIS chosen, and their obedience in doing HIS will should give us today an awareness of the importance in godly fear.

God promised in the OT the Branch of Righteousness

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

And when you enter into the NT we read of how Faith that can be something unseen, can appear in many of those people told of in the OT. (Very descriptively written of in Hebrew 11)

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The exception is what was in rememberance of Faith/OT and what would be through flesh in Christ in the NT. Faith would rest in The Righteous Branch that was promise OT, forward to NT known as the Vine, a seed of David, that is the manifested righteous flesh of God, in HIS begotten Son. And offered as a call in willingness and hope, to hold to that same ONE Faith still not seen but told of in HIS Son Christ Jesus, the One LORD.

Jesus speaks of HIS Father that they have not known but He knows Him..
(John 7:29 John 8:55)

Romans 3:21-22-23-24-25-26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


All written of in the Volume of the Book we know as the BIBLE witnessed and prophetised.

1 John 1:2-3(For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

~in Christ

[arcura]

sndbay,
Yes!
Fred

[JoeT777]

Then I would ask you why Peter spoke these words that have said that all nations that work in righteousness, and fear God are accepted of God.

Would you not agree that those working righteousness are not sinners, and those that hold a godly fear in God's hand of fire would be those that are not doing evil?

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I separated these two statements because they raise two separate and distinct issues. The first raises the question of whether Peter was suggesting that 'righteous' nations allude to separate Christian faiths as being one church. It doesn't. The latter, is unrelated to the first except for its common use of righteousness, and seems to express the misunderstanding of what it means to be righteous.

Referring to your first statement, in saying every nation, Luke was referring to Jews and Gentiles; that it is righteousness along with justice and fear of Him. Catholic doctrine working in fear of God and justice is taken for granted in Peter's words, “accepted with Him”; a virtuousness nature of men who populate these nations. This verse doesn't say that by simply believing in Christ will make you a nation or will make you into your very own faith. The verse presumes righteousness conforms to Christ's Mystical Body, he Catholic Church. After all, Judas was a righteous man, up till his fall.

The second statement presumes that by 'faith alone' we achieve perfection in holiness. Then perfection would need to be proportional to the faith that we hold. Those with 'little' faith are saved just a little bit, and those with 'much' faith are saved a lot. We know that if God wills us to be righteous then we will be such. This, however is not the norm, it's a grace afforded to only one that I know of, Mary Mother of God. To this St. Augustine responds, “If God wished not that man should be without sin, He would not have sent His Son without sin, to heal men of their sins. This takes place in believers who are being renewed day by day, (2 Corinthians 4:16) until their righteousness becomes perfect, like fully restored health.” (St. Augustine, On Man's Perfection in Righteousness, 7) St. Augustine continues to allude to the fact that sin is like an illness in man, that full righteousness is only achieved when the illness is gone, “when there is fullness of love, for “love is the fulfilling of the law” (Romans 13:10) CHURCH FATHERS: On Man's Perfection in Righteousness (St. Augustine)

The table that is prepared before all nations was Christ Jesus. His body and blood once and for all "Purged our sins", and set us free from the bondage of sin. Peter said, “God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.” Why then would any church call people unclean when they have confess belief in Christ the begotten Son of God and acknowledge all He has given us?

In Acts 10:28 Peter is referring to unclean as 'defiled' in Mark 7:2,20. This is evident that the unclean is linked with 'common'. In antiquity, as it is today, commoners were thought of as being 'beneath' the elite. Unclean people ate unclean meats and were normally thought of as commoners by the Jews. Peter is discussing his realization that unclean food is acceptable to God and consequently should not be viewed as beneath him. You've drawn the wrong conclusion from this verse.

Psalms 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Yes! He leads me on a Journey and day by day I reach His Fullness of righteousness.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The new covenant was establish by the body and blood of Christ. God's promise which is offered in One Faith. We are sanctified through Christ. We acknowledge that being sanctified by the body and blood of Christ, is by the hand of God who has begotten again through Christ to be in likeness of the seventh day in which God sanctified as Holy.

A new covenant was established and a new Kingdom, in fulfilling Christ's commission the Church communicates the promised grace of his Body and Blood in the Eucharist, “I am the bread of life…He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day” (John 6:48,55) We are sanctified in Christ, as adopted sons, not a regeneration but an inclusion into the Mystical Body of Christ through Baptism.

… I confess in One Faith?

I'm confused I know you're not Catholic so which of the 'One' faiths are we talking about? Reading out of a Bible doesn't make you of one faith. The bible makes no claim as the authority over itself or over faith. And the bible makes a very poor witness, it can't be cross-examined and asked what is meant by any one verse. How do you have One Faith without the discipline of one authority? How do you have One Faith that denies that man can hold the grace of holiness, but rather is an abject depraved creature and for salvation must become a mind numbed Christ-O-Bot, who somehow is made sinless, without a blemish, and to believe such of himself but not of the Mother of God? How do you have One Faith, that isn't universal, meant only for the elite? How do you have one faith without the teachings of the Apostles?

JoeT

[hamsterlovera]

I worship christ I am a teen he helps me in many tough spots of life I pray to him and he answers it may sound crazy but one time I saw him in a vision and he spoke to me I'm not crazy he works in many ways and he has changed my life and the lives of many others I know

[sndbay]

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I separated these two statements because they raise two separate and distinct issues. The first raises the question of whether Peter was suggesting that 'righteous' nations allude to separate Christian faiths as being one church. It doesn't. The latter, is unrelated to the first except for its common use of righteousness, and seems to express the misunderstanding of what it means to be righteous.

Referring to your first statement, in saying every nation, Luke was referring to Jews and Gentiles; that it is righteousness along with justice and fear of Him. Catholic doctrine working in fear of God and justice is taken for granted in Peter's words, “accepted with Him”; a virtuousness nature of men who populate these nations. This verse doesn't say that by simply believing in Christ will make you a nation or will make you into your very own faith. The verse presumes righteousness conforms to Christ's Mystical Body, he Catholic Church. After all, Judas was a righteous man, up till his fall.

Joe look at the verse before that of (Acts 10:35) Luke is telling of Peter's ministry with others.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

This is in reference of Peter that opened his mouth (and began as the scripture, and preaching to all present here before God, to hear all things that are commanded to them of God.) Refer: 10:33

Remember that scripture is the Word of God that is spoken through Peter, and how this knowledge was known to Peter. (Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus .) The Word of God in flesh

The spirit of truth being fed was that all may come into the house of the Lord to be One with Christ. What is acceptable children with Him is godly fear and righteousness in obedience. The same Word of Scripture fed to them by Christ Jesus (Luke 4:17-18-19)

Righteousness is show to God by the heart of man. And God searches the hearts of men by the inward appearance.

The second statement presumes that by 'faith alone' we achieve perfection in holiness. Then perfection would need to be proportional to the faith that we hold. Those with 'little' faith are saved just a little bit, and those with 'much' faith are saved a lot. We know that if God wills us to be righteous then we will be such. This, however is not the norm, it's a grace afforded to only one that I know of, Mary Mother of God. To this St. Augustine responds, “If God wished not that man should be without sin, He would not have sent His Son without sin, to heal men of their sins. This takes place in believers who are being renewed day by day, (2 Corinthians 4:16) until their righteousness becomes perfect, like fully restored health.” (St. Augustine, On Man's Perfection in Righteousness, 7) St. Augustine continues to allude to the fact that sin is like an illness in man, that full righteousness is only achieved when the illness is gone, “when there is fullness of lov, for “love is the fulfilling of the law” (Romans 13:10) CHURCH FATHERS: On Man's Perfection in Righteousness (St. Augustine)

Joe we should not declare a doctrine other then that of Christ Jesus. (Deu 32:2)

Deu 34:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Servants of Christ Jesus preach for the sake of Christ not themselves. And all praise and glory is shown to the power of God.

2 Corinthians 4:5-6-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Joe there is a day by day nourishment offered to the inward man. (2 Corinthians 4:16) Perhaps you should review what The Word of God says concerning the inward man.

"The Inward Man" (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16; Eph. 3:16).
This is the opposite of "the outward man" which perishes day by day, while this "inward man is renewed day by day"

We are being nourished and replenished day by day with grace and strength by the Holy Spirit; so that Christ can dwells in the heart by faith (Eph. 3:16) We learn something of His love which passeth knowledge, and are filled with all the fulness of God

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Parable of the wine bottle (Luke 5:37) The outward man, of old can not please God. That outward man of old must perish. And the outward man is doomed as is satan. You can not put the new with the old because then too the new will perish.

In Acts 10:28 Peter is referring to unclean as 'defiled' in Mark 7:2,20. This is evident that he unclean is linked with 'common'. In antiquity, as it is today, commoners were thought of as being 'beneath' the elite. Unclean people ate unclean meats and were normally thought of as commoners by the Jews. Peter is discussing his realization that unclean food is acceptable to God and consequently should not be viewed as beneath him. You've drawn the wrong conclusion from this verse.

This is not about meat, it is about men..

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The Gentile men were sent to Peter by God and God had gifted them with the Holy Spirit. Don't judge the outward appearance of man and what they eat was the teaching.

A new covenant was established and a new Kingdom, in fulfilling Christ's commission the Church communicates the promised grace of his Body and Blood in the Eucharist, “I am the bread of life…He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day” (John 6:48,55) We are sanctified in Christ, as adopted sons, not a regeneration but an inclusion into the Mystical Body of Christ through Baptism.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

I'm confused I know you're not Catholic so which of the 'One' faiths are we talking about? Reading out of a Bible doesn't make you of one faith. The bible makes no claim as the authority over itself or over faith. And the bible makes a very poor witness, it can't be cross-examined and asked what is meant by any one verse. How do you have One Faith without the discipline of one authority? How do you have One Faith that denies that man can hold the grace of holiness, but rather is an abject depraved creature and for salvation must become a mind numbed Christ-O-Bot, who somehow is made sinless, without a blemish, and to believe such of himself but not of the Mother of God? How do you have One Faith, that isn't universal, meant only for the elite? How do you have one faith without the teachings of the Apostles?

JoeT

Joe who did the apostles ask to increase their faith? It is God that reveals the spirit of truth, just as it is written concerning Peter who knew the truth of our Lord Jesus the begotten Son of God. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase

Hebrew 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness)


No man will ever take my heart of love from Christ

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

[sndbay]

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of HIM that created him



Spirit of Adoption

Romans 8:11-14 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

~in Christ

[gromitt82]

I trust the History of the OT offers us wisdom and is referenced often in the NT. How God communicated in the OT with HIS chosen, and their obedience in doing HIS will should give us today an awareness of the importance in godly fear.

God promised in the OT the Branch of Righteousness

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

And when you enter into the NT we read of how Faith that can be something unseen, can appear in many of those people told of in the OT. (Very descriptively written of in Hebrew 11)

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The exception is what was in rememberance of Faith/OT and what would be through flesh in Christ in the NT. Faith would rest in The Righteous Branch that was promise OT, forward to NT known as the Vine, a seed of David, that is the manifested righteous flesh of God, in HIS begotten Son. And offered as a call in willingness and hope, to hold to that same ONE Faith still not seen but told of in HIS Son Christ Jesus, the One LORD.

Jesus speaks of HIS Father that they have not known but He knows Him..
(John 7:29 John 8:55)

Romans 3:21-22-23-24-25-26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


All written of in the Volume of the Book we know as the BIBLE witnessed and prophetised.

1 John 1:2-3(For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

~in Christ

Of course, you are perfectly right in what you say.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer by adding to what I write "His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T, WHEN THEY IMPLY OR SUGGEST CONCEPTS AND/OR MESSAGES THAT MAY DIFFER IN PART OR TOTALLY FROM JESUS'MESSAGE.
This is what I actually meant when I said Jesus' words are final!
Gromitt82

[sndbay]

Of course, you are perfectly right in what you say.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer by adding to what I write "His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T, WHEN THEY IMPLY OR SUGGEST CONCEPTS AND/OR MESSAGES THAT MAY DIFFER IN PART OR TOTALLY FROM JESUS'MESSAGE.
This is what I actually meant when I said Jesus' words are final!
Gromitt82

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. (John 1:14) The Word was with God and was God from the beginning (John 1:1)

I only suggest that all that was written is spoke by God, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In that we can gain wisdom, and trust to surrender in obedience.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son

[arcura]

JoeT,
You did a good job explaining that well.
I add that The Church is the authority that upholds the authority of the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Joe look at the verse before that of (Acts 10:35) Luke is telling of Peter's ministry with others.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

This is in reference of Peter that opened his mouth (and began as the scripture, and preaching to all present here before God, to hear all things that are commanded to them of God.) Refer: 10:33

No it doesn't mean that he began to speak scripture. Let's try this thing with Acts 10 one more time.

“He opened his mouth” is a literary form of saying, pay attention, someone important is about to speak. In this case, Peter who is first Apostle among equals is pronouncing something dramatic to the Jew's who followed Christian sect. This is a big deal to Jew and gentile alike regarding being common or unclean for eating certain meats. Flash to Peter in Joppe, Peter went to his roof at the sixth hour (I think that's midnight). Hunger came over Peter. As the house staff was preparing his Jewish Dagwood sandwich Peter had a vision; a large tablecloth came down from heaven, opened up to reveal all manner of crawling and animals with cloven hooves. Peter was told to kill and eat. Well, this didn't set well with this Jewish fisherman, who wouldn't dream of eating one bite of St. Louis barbecue, or anything unclean. Peter said, “Far be it from me. For I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean.” (Acts 10:14) A voice spoke to Peter again: “That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. “ This vision isn't about men nor is it about barbecue. “What God hath cleansed, do not call common.” Why was Peter the recipient of this vision? Why not Simon or Cornelius? The reason is obvious.

The First among equal Apostles, Peter, was about to make one of those earth shattering announcements. The fledgling sect of Jews, which were to be called Catholic, announces to the Jewish world that it's OK to eat common and unclean foods. For the first time Peter could enjoy Memphis barbecue without sinning – as long as he understands that St. Louis type is still banned down here (for good reason).

The author is telling us something about how important this revelation is and, in doing so, he is telling us something about Peter. Peter is making an authoritative announcement:I don't believe this was first doctrinal announcement by the Vicar of Christ (maybe the second or third). By Luke telling us that Peter is opening his mouth he is takeing a literary form of saying 'pay attention' someone with authority is speaking to us. And who was this someone? Peter the first among Vicars of Christ.

Remember that scripture is the Word of God that is spoken through Peter, and how this knowledge was known to Peter. (Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus .) The Word of God in flesh

The spirit of truth being fed was that all may come into the house of the Lord to be One with Christ. What is acceptable children with Him is godly fear and righteousness in obedience. The same Word of Scripture fed to them by Christ Jesus (Luke 4:17-18-19)

Righteousness is show to God by the heart of man. And God searches the hearts of men by the inward appearance.

Joe we should not declare a doctrine other then that of Christ Jesus. (Deu 32:2)

Deu 34:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Servants of Christ Jesus preach for the sake of Christ not themselves. And all praise and glory is shown to the power of God.

2 Corinthians 4:5-6-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

How all this is germane to Acts 10 escapes me - it distorts the meaning of scripture. In fact it bruises the scriptures; remember one Truth, one Christ, One Church.

Joe there is a day by day nourishment offered to the inward man. (2 Corinthians 4:16) Perhaps you should review what The Word of God says concerning the inward man.

"The Inward Man" (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16; Eph. 3:16).
This is the opposite of "the outward man" which perishes day by day, while this "inward man is renewed day by day"

We are being nourished and replenished day by day with grace and strength by the Holy Spirit; so that Christ can dwells in the heart by faith (Eph. 3:16) We learn something of His love which passeth knowledge, and are filled with all the fulness of God

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Parable of the wine bottle (Luke 5:37) The outward man, of old can not please God. That outward man of old must perish. And the outward man is doomed as is satan. You can not put the new with the old because then too the new will perish.

This is not about meat, it is about men..

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The Gentile men were sent to Peter by God and God had gifted them with the Holy Spirit. Don't judge the outward appearance of man and what they eat was the teaching.


Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Joe who did the apostles ask to increase their faith? It is God that reveals the spirit of truth, just as it is written concerning Peter who knew the truth of our Lord Jesus the begotten Son of God. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase

Hebrew 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness)


No man will ever take my heart of love from Christ

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

These tangential arguments don't change the fact that the nourishment offered by Christ can't be misunderstood in scripture. It's in plain simple language; I thought you were a 'scripture only' Christian. Everlasting life can only be obtained in communion with the body and blood of Christ.

I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever. (John 6:48 seqq.)

Does this scandalize you?

JoeT