[NeedKarma]

...you have no problem with the same bureaucrat determining whether you live or die.

More fear mongering by the neocons, Doctors determine your healthcare needs not a bureaucrat. Stop spreading the FUD so thickly.

[ETWolverine]

If a bureaucrat can tell you that the government will not pay for that medicine, and if you have no other method of obtaining that medicine because you are in a single payer system, then the government bureaucrat is detrermining your life and death. REGARDLESS of what you or your doctor wish.

It happens all the time in Canada, whether you wish to recognize it or not,

[NeedKarma]

It happens all the time in Canada, whether you wish to recognize it or not,

Then you guys should be so lucky!

[ETWolverine]

Then you guys should be so lucky!

I'd rather have a system where even if I'm denied, I can still purchase what services I need out of pocket. So, thanks but no thanks.

[excon]

If a bureaucrat can tell you that the government will not pay for that medicine, and if you have no other method of obtaining that medicine

Hello again, El:

If an insurance adjuster tells you that he will not pay for a life saving operation for you, and you have NO OTHER method of obtaining that treatment, you're going to DIE.

That's the way it IS today. The health insurance industry RATIONS health care so they can make a PROFIT off your cold stiff dead body... Frankly, THAT'S pretty scary, and that's what the Wolverine thinks is great.

excon

[NeedKarma]

The republican party looks out for the rich, the rest can die for all they care.

[excon]

I'd rather have a system where even if I'm denied, I can still purchase what services I need out of pocket. So, thanks but no thanks.

Hello again, El

I guess, we're going to have to go the full 150 pages of this thread, because I'm not going to let you keep on dishing out your swill.

IF you HAVE insurance, and you are DENIED a procedure because it's either too expensive, not covered, or is a result of a pre-existing condition, THERE'S NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE WORLD THAT WILL SELL YOU INSURANCE!! Can you pay for it yourself? Sure. But, if you could afford it, why would you need insurance?

Yes, I'm going to keep on repeating it until you get it... I know you're NOT going to get it, because you are INVESTED in not getting it.

excon

[speechlesstx]

I know you want to scare people... But, can't you at least scare them with something that actually MIGHT happen, instead of making up stuff?

LOL, I love this. For 8 years you guys have been complaining about us fear mongers... while fear mongering. Seriously, and right there at the top of the heap is the fear-mongerer-in-chief that promised the end of "Karl Rove politics of fear and cynicism" in his “Change We Can Believe In” speech.

So much for that. From his presser just last week:

“This is not just about the 47 million Americans who don't have any health insurance at all. Reform is about every American who has ever feared that they may lose their coverage if they become too sick, or lose their job, or change their job. It's about every small business that has been forced to lay off employees or cut back on their coverage because it became too expensive...

So let me be clear: If we do not control these costs, we will not be able to control our deficit. If we do not reform health care, your premiums and out-of-pocket costs will continue to skyrocket. If we don't act, 14,000 Americans will continue to lose their health insurance every single day. These are the consequences of inaction. These are the stakes of the debate that we're having right now. "

No fear mongering in that is there? This is also the same guy who called health care a "ticking time bomb" and used scare tactics to pass porkulus.

I can’t tell you for sure that everything in this plan will work exactly as we hope, but I can tell you with complete confidence that a failure to act will only deepen this crisis as well as the pain felt by millions of Americans. My administration inherited a deficit of over $1 trillion, but because we also inherited the most profound economic emergency since the Great Depression, doing too little or nothing at all will result in an even greater deficit of jobs, incomes; and confidence. That is a deficit that could turn a crisis into a catastrophe.

This is an administration that lives by Rule 1: "Never allow a crisis to go to waste."

Yeah, if you want to be honest with us and yourself you might want to rethink some things.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, El:

If an insurance adjuster tells you that he will not pay for a life saving operation for you, and you have NO OTHER method of obtaining that treatment, you're gonna DIE.

That's the way it IS today. The health insurance industry RATIONS health care so they can make a PROFIT off your cold stiff dead body...... Frankly, THAT'S pretty scary, and that's what the Wolverine thinks is great.

excon

Even better than your last post complaining about our scare tactics. I'm not sure you can get much more dramatic in trying to scare folks than saying "you're gonna DIE."

[NeedKarma]

Steve hasn't figured out the difference between real fears ("I have to sell the house to pay my medical bills") versus manufactured fears ("the government will decide whether you live or die!"). He drunk the kool-aid.

[excon]

LOL, I love this. For 8 years you guys have been complaining about us fear mongers ... while fear mongering.

Hello again, Steve:

Well, there's stuff that we NEED to be afraid of, like not having medical care when you need it...

Then there's stuff we DON'T need to be afraid of, like waking up to a terrorist under your bed.

We need a leader who knows the difference, and we have one.

excon

[speechlesstx]

More fear mongering by the neocons, Doctors determine your healthcare needs not a bureaucrat. Stop spreading the FUD so thickly.

What a crock. The fear-monger-in-chief is the one appealing to fear. I repeat, the Obama administration's Rule no. 1 is "Never allow a crisis to go to waste."

[asking]

I'd rather have a system where even if I'm denied, I can still purchase what services I need out of pocket. So, thanks but no thanks.

You can always do that if you have the bucks, whether the insurer is Aetna or a government.

Of course, you'll pay more since you don't have the leverage of a big organization. The hospital charged me $130,000* for my surgery and 5-day stay in the hospital, but the HMO only paid $50,000 and said to the hospital "you'll take that and be happy with it." If I'd paid myself, it would have been $130,000.

*They put a tube of a chapstick in my room and charged $9 for it. They also sent me home with a plastic shoe horn, for which I was charged $65.

But being able to pay yourself for services above and beyond basic coverage wouldn't change with single payer. I am sure you could even buy private insurance to cover extras, like elective plastic surgery, if you wanted. What would change is that EVERYONE would be covered - whether they had a good job, had just lost their job, or worked at Mcdonalds; whether they were healthy and got hit by a truck, or whether they had a life long disease stemming from childhood, no spouse or parents. Nobody could be turned down.

Mothers who stay home with their kids would be covered even if their employed husband died or left them or if the mothers left because of abuse. Mothers shouldn't have to choose between abuse and medical coverage for themselves and their children. The way it is now, mothers often do have to make that calculation.

[NeedKarma]

I repeat, the Obama administration's Rule no. 1 is "Never allow a crisis to go to waste."

Just repeating today's right-wing talking points doesn't make them true.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Well, there's stuff that we NEED to be afraid of, like not having medical care when you need it....

Then there's stuff we DON'T need to be afraid of, like waking up to a terrorist under your bed.

We need a leader who knows the difference, and we have one.

Sorry ex, I'm not going to let you off that easily. I'm not going to let you get away with using fear mongering to complain about fear mongering. I've had more than enough that hypocritical bullsh*t for the last 8 years. Obama is lying through his teeth, moving the goal posts daily and playing on the fears of Americans to try and ram bad legislation through that no one even reads. That should scare the hell out of you.

[tomder55]

asking

What you describe is a system where the elites indeed can get a better deal while the rest of us are consigned to a mediocre centralized substandard rationed program.

Currently the vast majority of Americans get very good service and there are propotionately a few cracks in the system that affect relatively few people that no doubt needs to be addressed .

Typical of socialism, the prescription being offered is to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator .

But don't think for one second it will either lower costs ,improve services ,or fix what is broken. It won't . Instead what is being offered is share the suffering .

One more thing... the plan being concocted in the House of Reps would deny the individual of the choice of a two tiered system. Like it or not... all choice will be decided in Washington.

[NeedKarma]

What you describe is a system where the elites indeed can get a better deal while the rest of us are consigned to a mediocre centralized substandard rationed program.

No, that's what the wolverine described:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine
I'd rather have a system where even if I'm denied, I can still purchase what services I need out of pocket.

Really, how many can afford that??

[excon]

That should scare the hell out of you.

Hello again, Steve:

Frankly, it does. However, I'm MORE scared if they DON'T fix it - or at least TRY to fix it. But, you guys are pretending it isn't broken, when it clearly is.

I'm no lover of government services, but this isn't something the health care industry will fix itself - especially when they don't think there's a problem. So, instead of letting us go broke over health care, I think it's better for the country, better for our national security, and better for your children to fix it NOW.

Is THIS a fix?? Nahhh. It's an incremental one, at best. Will it provide a patch until we can reach the next level, which is single payer?? I hope so.

Let's get back to something for a minute... No matter what you may believe, I am a capitalist. I believe the private sector provides better than the government does. I would MUCH rather the health care INDUSTRY FIX this problem on itsr own...

But, it's clear that it isn't going to happen that way when they don't even see a problem. I guess you'd have to be an "apologist" to recognize it. Is that it??

excon

[speechlesstx]

Just repeating today's right-wing talking points doesn't make them true.

No, the facts do.

“Rule one: Never allow a crisis to go to waste,” Mr. Emanuel said in an interview on Sunday.



Clinton told young Europeans at the European Parliament that global economic turmoil provided a fresh opening. "Never waste a good crisis... Don't waste it when it can have a very positive impact on climate change and energy security," she said.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Frankly, it does. However, I'm MORE scared if they DON'T fix it - or at least TRY to fix it. But, you guys are pretending it isn't broken, when it clearly is.

Or more accurately, you're pretending we haven't said it was broken.