[ZoeMarie]

Elliot, that was a very well thought out and professional responce. Thank you.
I won't claim to know everything about eveyone, different things work for different people. I'd agree that it is entirly possible that my wife has been misdiagnosed.

Part of this misdiagnosis could have been due to our lack of insurance at the time, where as, we would just go to who ever we could find to work with us.

Mental issues seem to be harder to get help for (financially speaking) then more main stream physical issues.

She was diagnosed thourgh an agency that dealt in uninsured/lower income people. When the medication she was prescribed had a bad side effect, she tried killing herself, and was sent down to the mental facility 2 hours away for a few weeks.

The whole ordeal was quite trying.

Right now, she seems okay, she has her days once in a while, it's mostly bitterness towards people who have wrong'ed her. She has had a rough upbringing, and a very disfuctional family.

Right now, I'm leaving it up to her. We talk about it once in a while. As a matter of fact, when I finally got her on my employers plan a few years back, we discussed going to see a different professional, and possibly trying some other medications. She decided that should would hold off. She's scared to death of having another pill mix up and winding up back at that horrid state funded facility.

Time will tell what feelings she is harboring. And we work through them as we come to them.

ZoeMarie: Please quote where I stated anywhere in this thread or others that any patient of any disease mental or physical should "just snap out of it". That's putting an unnecessary twist on what I stated.

There are some people who treat all diseases completley naturally (using herbal remedies and such). All though I do not practice this, I also don't condemn it either.

I'm not trying to be insensitive to anyone's condition. I beleive I stated that it is my personal choice to avoid mind altering drugs. Just taking an excedrin, what with the caffene in it makes my hands jittery, and that's already more than I want to live with.

In closing, I have lived with my wife for 8 years, and married to her for 6, I know all to well you don't just "snap out of it".

And I've had a doctor pretty much screw up on a perscription with my step daughter once. Gave her two things that shouldn't be taken together, the pharmicist didn't catch it either, well, when she started screaming that the coffee table was coming out after her and sponge bob was trying to eat her one night, we found out the hard way what happens when medications are mis-dispensed.

You just have to be carefull, and not so quick to take everything that someone offers you.

I wasn't quoting you. I was quoting someone else. I know you didn't say that.

[andrewc24301]

galveston has a point that sometimes there is a lack of something in the body that can be naturally addressed.
My wife was on antidepressants(covered under my insurance ) and they made the situation worse . She is now combating it through nutrition and supplementation and the careful monitoring of her nutrition levels by a doctor that knows what he is doing .(none of it covered in our plan ;but still the right treatment for her. )

Yup- everyone's different. Mind altering drugs must be used with care. Some people may have a valid use/need for them. But I do believe than can be over prescribed.

[andrewc24301]

I wasn't quoting you. I was quoting someone else. I know you didn't say that.

I know, I just wanted to address that misconception before it got out of hand.

Sorry, you were the last to mention it, so I just landed on you.

[ZoeMarie]

I know, I just wanted to address that misconception before it got out of hand.

Sorry, you were the last to mention it, so I just landed on you.

Lol. Quite all right.

[ETWolverine]

Elliot, that was a very well thought out and professional responce. Thank you.
I won't claim to know everything about eveyone, different things work for different people. I'd agree that it is entirly possible that my wife has been misdiagnosed.

Part of this misdiagnosis could have been due to our lack of insurance at the time, where as, we would just go to who ever we could find to work with us.

Mental issues seem to be harder to get help for (financially speaking) then more main stream physical issues.

She was diagnosed thourgh an agency that dealt in uninsured/lower income people. When the medication she was prescribed had a bad side effect, she tried killing herself, and was sent down to the mental facility 2 hours away for a few weeks.

The whole ordeal was quite trying.

Right now, she seems okay, she has her days once in a while, it's mostly bitterness towards people who have wrong'ed her. She has had a rough upbringing, and a very disfuctional family.

Right now, I'm leaving it up to her. We talk about it once in a while. As a matter of fact, when I finally got her on my employers plan a few years back, we discussed going to see a different professional, and possibly trying some other medications. She decided that should would hold off. She's scared to death of having another pill mix up and winding up back at that horrid state funded facility.

Time will tell what feelings she is harboring. And we work through them as we come to them.

ZoeMarie: Please quote where I stated anywhere in this thread or others that any patient of any disease mental or physical should "just snap out of it". That's putting an unnecessary twist on what I stated.

There are some people who treat all diseases completley naturally (using herbal remedies and such). All though I do not practice this, I also don't condemn it either.

I'm not trying to be insensitive to anyone's condition. I beleive I stated that it is my personal choice to avoid mind altering drugs. Just taking an excedrin, what with the caffene in it makes my hands jittery, and that's already more than I want to live with.

In closing, I have lived with my wife for 8 years, and married to her for 6, I know all to well you don't just "snap out of it".

And I've had a doctor pretty much screw up on a perscription with my step daughter once. Gave her two things that shouldn't be taken together, the pharmicist didn't catch it either, well, when she started screaming that the coffee table was coming out after her and sponge bob was trying to eat her one night, we found out the hard way what happens when medications are mis-dispensed.

You just have to be carefull, and not so quick to take everything that someone offers you.

I agree with what you have said here. I think that the best patient for any kind of medicine, mental or physical, is the skeptical patient. That's why 2nd opinions were created. I always bounce why my psychiatrist (MD) says off my therapist (PhD) and vice versa. I also have them talk to each other so that all areas of my treatment are on the same page. I question any new recommendations and try to understand WHY the clinician is making the recommendation. If I feel changes in my body or my mind, I immediately call my health care professional and ask about it.

(Case in point: about a year ago, I noticed that my hands were having tremors. I pointed it out to my therapist during my weekly session, and she suggested that I might be on too high a dose of Zoloft. My Psychiatrist agreed and lowered my dose by 1/3. I was skeptical and inquisitive about something I was noticing about myself, and a correction was made.

Another time, about a month ago, I noticed that I was becoming more anxious and snappy in my dealings with others. It just so happens that the snappiness coincided with a downgrade in the dosage of one of my meds. I brought it to my therapist, and she told me that such effects were to be expected after a decrease in dosage, and that I should wait it out for a couple of weeks to see what happened next before requesting a change in meds. After another week or so, my mood normalized... I had been suffering a low-grade form of withdrawal that I just needed to wait out until my body adjusted to the new level of meds. Again, I was skeptical about what I noticed for myself and asked about it. And it worked out well.)

Bottom line, NEVER just take your professional's word for it. Always double check them and KEEP double checking them. There is no reason not to, and every chance that you will catch something that they miss because they aren't with you 24-7.

So I don't think that we are disagreeing in philosophy here. We both seem to agree that being a skeptic is a good way to deal with any form of health care. But skepticism, in my opinion, should not include ignoring medicine completely. It should mean asking the right questions until such time as you have the answers that work for you and make your life more manageble.

One other point: the thing you mentioned about excedrin and caffine... that's a physical alteration to the body, not a mental alteration. What you are describing is not a MENTAL reaction but a physical reaction. A mental reaction might be not being able to sleep with that combination of drugs, nervousness, anxiety, anger, depressive feelings, inability to concentrate, etc. Getting the shakes is a PHYSICAL reaction similar to what I was experiencing with too high a dose of Zoloft.

Mind you, in my case, the Zoloft was doing what it was supposed to for me MENTALLY. It was the physical reaction that I questioned. There is a link between the mental and the physical. But you have to be careful not to confuse the two. In SOME cases, a physical reaction to a drug may be preferable to the mental effect of not having the drug if that drug really is necessary.

Just something to keep in mind.

Elliot

[andrewc24301]

Very good then, we are in agreement.

I'm not scared of modern medicine. I'd much rather treat an infection with antibiotics than leeches! LOL I get a flu shot every year.

I think we all can agree than there are a lot or drugs out there on the pharmacies shelf that have to be respected. Drugs that alter the state of mind are at the top of the "respect" list.

Just as many physical drugs can cause mental side effects, and vice versa. All drugs are toxins, a bottle of asprins can kill you if taken all at once. Just a couple can cure a headache.

[andrewc24301]

Perhaps my first comment in this thread was a bit to broad and abrupt.
I hope that those who have read the thread in it's entirety understand the point I was getting to.

[excon]

When did something that started out as a luxury item, a benefit, become a right that the government has to guarantee us under the law?

Hello El:

I don't know WHEN, but here's how: the Ninth Amendment to the Constitution.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello El:

I dunno WHEN, but here's how: the Ninth Amendment to the Constitution.

excon

Here's the 9th Amendment:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Ok... the fact that the Constitution doesn't list certain rights doesn't mean that the people don't have them.

But how do you construe that to mean that medical benefits offered by employers as an employment perk are a right?

People have a RIGHT TO PURCHASE MEDICAL INSURANCE if they so desire. The Ninth Amendment would seem to protect that right, along with the rest of the Constitution.

But that is different from saying that medical insurance is itself a right. You have the Constitutionally guaranteed right to purchase it the same way you have the Constitutionally guaranteed right to purchase a car and a boat and a home. But you are not guaranteed a car and a boat and a home by the Constitution. Nor are not guaranteed medical insurance by the Constitution. If you are lucky enough to have an employer who provides it, fine. If you can afford it on your own, fine. But you are not guaranteed it by the Constitution.

You find the silliest ways to misinterpret the Constitution to fit your political agenda. This one, though, is just pure horse-hockey, and you know it. It isn't even a GOOD misrepresentation of the Constitution.

Elliot

[excon]

You find the silliest ways to misinterpret the Constitution to fit your political agenda. This one, though, is just pure horse-hockey, and you know it. It isn't even a GOOD misrepresentation of the Constitution.

Hello again, El:

Look, there's plenty to argue about with me, without misquoting me. I didn't say health insurance is a right. I said health CARE is a right. It's right there, in the Ninth Amendment.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

Look, there's plenty to argue about with me, without misquoting me. I didn't say health insurance is a right. I said health CARE is a right. It's right there, in the Ninth Amendment.

excon

That's not what this post is about. We're talking about health insurance... the benefit given by some employers to their employees, and that Americans all over are demanding as their right from the government.

The government health plan isn't going to give health care, it's going to giver healt insurance. DOCTORS give health care. The government just gives health insurance.

So... even if we assume that you are correct, that health CARE is a right (which is actually something very much up for debate), your point about the Constitution is very much OFF TOPIC and doesn't answer my question.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

What I want to know is how those who argue health care is a right can ration that right.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

That's a darn good question...

But, upon some circumspection, lots of our rights are rationed... There's only so much room in the courts, so court rooms are "rationed" by the strength of one's case. The cases that aren't strong, might get dismissed. That's "rationing".

We have limited prison space, so somebody's rights are being rationed there. Guns are finite in supply, even though you have the right to one. We have limited airways, so access to the air is "rationed".

I actually don't think ANY right should be rationed, but in reality, some are. Look, if it were me, I'd give everybody the health care that they need. I wouldn't say no to anybody, so you couldn't afford to have me as the guy.

excon

[speechlesstx]

That's a darn good question....

But, upon some circumspection, lots of our rights are rationed...

So what the advocates should be saying is everyone deserves health care, but only so much.

[excon]

So what the advocates should be saying is everyone deserves health care, but only so much.

Hello again, Steve:

Close. Insert the words "there is" after but, and before only. That'll accurately describe it.

But, what you wrote, could easily have come out of the mouth of a health insurance dude. They're only going to give you "so much", too... Unless, you'd have us believe that once you buy health insurance, EVERY health service you ever wanted is there for the asking.

Nahhh. You wouldn't want us to believe that...

excon

[galveston]

I mentioned VA hospitals before, and now realize that there is also the health care delivered to Indian reservations.

Both are government run, and both are sub standard, if reports are to be believed.

Do any of us really want to have access to only VA hospital quality?

That's what we will get if this goes through. And it will cost taxpayers a BUNDLE.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Close. Insert the words "there is" after but, and before only. That'll accurately describe it.

But, what you wrote, could easily have come out of the mouth of a health insurance dude. They're only going to give you "so much", too.... Unless, you'd have us believe that once you buy health insurance, EVERY health service you ever wanted is there for the asking.

Nahhh. You wouldn't want us to believe that....

Nope, just like with climate change I want HONESTY. Saying "there is" sounds honest to me. Saying there won't be rationing is dishonest. The president urging governors not to use the term "rationing" is dishonest. Telling us our taxes won't go up is dishonest. Not reading the bill is dishonest. Telling us we can keep our insurance if we like it is dishonest. Trying to rush this through before the details emerge is dishonest. I'm already as tired of this administration and this congress trying to pull the wool over our eyes as you were after 8 years of Bush... and trust me, what Obama and this congress are doing to this country is going to be far more disastrous.

[excon]

Hello gal:

Even with the Democrats plan, which I'm not thrilled about, won't nationalize health care. There will still be your private doctor, your private hospital, your private drug store, and your private pharmaceutical manufacturer.

MY single payer plan, which is even more radical than the democrats, would STILL leave all those things private. The only industry MY plan would nationalize would be the health insurance industry.

So, I wouldn't be believing those emails you're getting.

Don't get me wrong. I liked the system the way it used to be - when EVERYBODY could afford it. That's when doctors made house calls too, and we ain't going to go back to that.

Nope. Somebody got greedy. Doctors, lawyers, health insurance CEO's. I don't know who. But, it wasn't YOU & ME. Frankly, I don't mind cutting 'em out of the equation.

excon

[galveston]

An unintended consequence of national health care will probably a shortage of doctors.

How many young people will spend the money and years required to become doctors if their ability to earn big money is removed and also they can't really practice medicine because some bureaucrat will be telling them what medicines and procedures they will be permitted to use?

[speechlesstx]

I mentioned VA hospitals before, and now realize that there is also the health care delivered to Indian reservations.

Glad you mentioned that. I posted on that article and it seems to have been completely ignored. The government hasn't gotten that right for over 200 years and now we want to subject everyone to some marvelous government health care plan?