There was a time in the USA not that long ago when people paid for their own medical care. If they couldn't pay for a doctor, they either went into debt or they had to rely on the generosity of the medical professionals.

Over time, some bright person came up with the idea of medical insurance: I'll collect a few dollars from lot's of different people and put it into a pool, to be used to cover the medical costs of people in the pool as it is needed. Since statistically speaking not everyone gets sick all at the same time, the funds collected from a bunch of people can be used to pay for the expenses of a few. For managing this service, I will collect a fee, and I will invest the money that is in the pool so as to maximize both my profitability and the amount of money available in the pool. And since I represent a lot of patients, I will also have the ability to negotiate for better prices of medical care for my clients. Patients lay out small amounts of money to cover their very large medical expenses. Doctors get guaranteed business fed to them by the insurance company. The insurance company gets a cut of whatever they collect from patients.

Good idea.

Then someone got a bright idea to start offering to pay for a portion of the cost of medical insurance as an emplyment benefit. Especially in industries where compensation was either very competitive or highly regulated, it made sense for companies to offer medical coverage (or a portion thereof) as a relatively low-cost benefit, a perk for employment.

Note that word... "BENEFIT". As in "a luxury item", something offered to sweeten a deal.

As time went on, more and more people asked for this particular benefit until most companies were offering it as a matter of course. Anyone employed by a company of 10 people or more just naturally came to expect this benefit as part of their employment package. If you worked, you expected to get medical benefits.

This continued until now... until suddenly this benefit, this perk, this luxury item, is suddenly being seen as a RIGHT that everyone should have as a matter of law.

When did something that started as a luxury item, a benefit, become a right that the government has to guarantee us under the law?

Elliot

Yeah, I was wondering that same thing myself, Wolverine. But there is a downside now to all this "freebie crap" that employers have to dangle in front of employees to keep them employed. Now companies are not offering such cheap health insurance premiums that the employees have to pay. The last employer I worked for that offered health insurance benefits to their employees had to jack up their portion of what the employee contributed monthly three times in one year! The rates of the insurance companies are disgraceful and usury. "Oh the costs are skyrocketing at the doctor's offices and hospitals" is their excuse. No, it's the pure greed of the health insurance companies that is driving the premiums sky high. No other reason to raise the rates three times in one year.

Also, why are the people who do have the health insurance offered by their companies (even if they don't have to pay the full premium but just part of it) constantly going to the doctor's? My fellow employees thought nothing of going to their doctor for a cold and getting antibiotics for a cold! That's another reason why costs are too high. Employee abuse pure and simple. Not preventative medicine, but seeing the doctor for stupid stuff and then happily getting prescriptions for "depression" while they are there and getting hooked on those pills as the doctor thought they were depressed since they had a cold. The doctors are really willing accomplices as well in this web of deceit. They are nothing more than pill pushers getting kickbacks from Big Pharma for pushing certain drugs and getting more people hooked on them.

Companies are now not offering health insurance as "perks, benefits, whatever" as they cannot frankly afford to do so. Some companies have drastically cut back any benefits to their employees as the company cannot afford to keep outlaying perks or benefits any longer.

And this is why I seldom go to the doctor, and I would NEVER WILLINGLY or KNOWLINGLY take any type of medication that messes with my head. Such as for depression. I see people all over the place, who "have a bad life" (or so they say), they go to the doctor, and get hooked on these pills that are supposed to put you in a good mood. Suddenly, they have prescription bills several hundred dollars per month.

People need to learn how to manage their problems without the aid of mind altering drugs, including alcohol.

No mother's little helper for me, no thank you!

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Then someone got a bright idea to start offering to pay for a portion of the cost of medical insurance as an emplyment benefit. Especially in industries where compensation was either very competitive or highly regulated, it made sense for companies to offer medical coverage (or a portion thereof) as a relatively low-cost benefit, a perk for employment.

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When FDR instituted mandatory wage and price controls ,that meant the employer's only ability to compete for employees was by creating non-controlled benefits .
That is how the current system was born .October 26, 1943, the IRS ruled that employers could continue to pay health insurance premiums in pre-tax dollars. That ruling legitimized and encouraged the practice.


Give me and all my American coworkers the cash equivalent to the benefit and open up the options of choices like I have in auto-insurance ,homeowner's insurance,life insurance .

That will in turn create more competition in the health insurance market place and prices are sure to drop.

I don't need the full menu that includes coverage for a massage or infirtility treatment but perhaps I'd prefer preventive supplements or holistic medicine covered instead.I don't need to be covered for nicotine dependency. That should be my choice .An ala-carte selection of benefits would better suit everyone's needs instead of 'universal coverage ' .I think insurance should be portable no matter who I worked for. If I can make a better deal in another State then why can't I have access to the plan the insurance company provides to employers and employess from that State ?

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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

Yeah, I was wondering that same thing myself, Wolverine. But there is a downside now to all this "freebie crap" that employers have to dangle in front of employees to keep them employed. Now companies are not offering such cheap health insurance premiums that the employees have to pay. The last employer I worked for that offered health insurance benefits to their employees had to jack up their portion of what the employee contributed monthly three times in one year! The rates of the insurance companies are disgraceful and usury. "Oh the costs are skyrocketing at the doctor's offices and hospitals" is their excuse. No, it's the pure greed of the health insurance companies that is driving the premiums sky high. No other reason to raise the rates three times in one year.

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Well, there is some legitimacy to the claims made by the insurance companies about increased costs. Costs actually have gone up, due in part to covering the uninsured and in part to the effects of frivolous lawsuits (both in terms of malpractice premiums and the unnecessary tests doctors do to cover their butts). Costs have gone up something like 56% in the past 10 years.

On the other hand, there is indeed a greed factor. Insurance companies will get away with charging as much as the market will bear. Why not? That's how capitalism works. But they can only get away with it for as long as we let them. The response to high prices is no create a new private insurance company that will charge less, thus creating price competition. Competition lowers prices. Competition is the answer to high prices and poor service. Government run options DECREASE competition, and are counterproductive to lowering prices and increasing services.

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Also, why are the people who do have the health insurance offered by their companies (even if they don't have to pay the full premium but just part of it) constantly going to the doctor's? My fellow employees thought nothing of going to their doctor for a cold and getting antibiotics for a cold! That's another reason why costs are too high. Employee abuse pure and simple. Not preventative medicine, but seeing the doctor for stupid stuff and then happily getting prescriptions for "depression" while they are there and getting hooked on those pills as the doctor thought they were depressed since they had a cold. The doctors are really willing accomplices as well in this web of deceit. They are nothing more than pill pushers getting kickbacks from Big Pharma for pushing certain drugs and getting more people hooked on them.

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Here we disagree completely. If I am paying for medical insurance, then I demand medical coverage. If I work for my insurance coverage (even if my employer pays the entire amount, it is still being paid for by labor) then I demand to be covered for anything... even if it's just the sniffles.

Let's also not lose site of the fact that preventive care is usually more cost effective than care after the fact. Getting taken care of for the sniffles and a sore throat today may very well prevent bronchitis tomorrow, which would be more costly to cure.

And as a sufferer of climical depression and consumer of Zoloft and Wellbutrin, I can tell from your post that you clearly have no idea what depression is, what it does to the human body and mind and how debilitating the illness is. It isn't "stupid stuff" and nobody suffering from depression WANTS to be suffering from it. I can assure you of that. Anti-depressants are a very important tool of the medical industry. That's not to say that they aren't abused by some... but then again, cough medicine can be abused. So can Ibuprofen. That doesn't mean that they aren't effective when used appropriately. In my particular case, I can tell you that without the anti-depressant meds I take, I would have died, pure and simple. Your statement on this point is rather simplistic and lacks an understanding of how the chemistry of the human body works.

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Companies are now not offering health insurance as "perks, benefits, whatever" as they cannot frankly afford to do so. Some companies have drastically cut back any benefits to their employees as the company cannot afford to keep outlaying perks or benefits any longer.

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True. Which again brings me back to my original question. The employees of those companies seem to be saying that having those benefits is a right, and if their companies won't give them what is rightfully theirs, then they should be getting it from the government. When did benefits offered as perks become a right to be guaranteed by the government?

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Originally Posted by andrewc24301

And this is why I seldom go to the doctor, and I would NEVER WILLINGLY or KNOWLINGLY take any type of medication that messes with my head. Such as for depression. I see people all over the place, who "have a bad life" (or so they say), they go to the doctor, and get hooked on these pills that are supposed to put you in a good mood. Suddenly, they have prescription bills several hundred dollars per month.

People need to learn how to manage their problems without the aid of mind altering drugs, including alchohol.

No mother's little helper for me, no thank you!

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Again this shows a simplistic understanding of clinical depression and how it effects the human body. You seem to think that those suffering from depression should "just snap out of it" as if there were nothing wrong with them in the first place. You clearly have never suffered from the effects of clinical depression, and don't know anything about it. Yet you speak with such authority on a subject you know nothing about.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by tomder55

When FDR instituted mandatory wage and price controls ,that meant the employer's only ability to compete for employees was by creating non-controlled benefits .
That is how the current system was born .October 26, 1943, the IRS ruled that employers could continue to pay health insurance premiums in pre-tax dollars. That ruling legitimized and encouraged the practice.


give me and all my American coworkers the cash equivalent to the benefit and open up the options of choices like I have in auto-insurance ,homeowner's insurance,life insurance .

That will in turn create more competition in the health insurance market place and prices are sure to drop.

I don't need the full menu that includes coverage for a massage or infirtility treatment but perhaps I'd prefer preventive supplements or holistic medicine covered instead.I don't need to be covered for nicotine dependency. That should be my choice .An ala-carte selection of benefits would better suit everyone's needs instead of 'universal coverage ' .I think insurance should be portable no matter who I worked for. If I can make a better deal in another State then why can't I have access to the plan the insurance company provides to employers and employess from that State ?

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Geico auto insurance (and I presume others as well) is now offering a "name your own price" deal, wherein you tell them what your budget is and they build you a policy that fits the budget by eliminating anything that isn't absolutely necessary to your needs.

Why can't insurance companies do the same thing? Want basic care for a family of 4 that includes well visits to pediatricians, pharmaceutical coverage, and catastrophic care? Your kids are under 3 and don't need dental yet, but you and your wife do? Don't care about the fertility coverage or the massage therapy but you need mental health coverage (after all, you're married with two kids... who wouldn't need mental health coverage)? We'll build you a policy that gives you what you need, and nothing more. If you want more, we can add stuff later, but for now, you pay for what you need and nothing else.

Let the companies pay the employees HALF of what they are paying for my health care, plus my contribution, directly to me, and let me buy my own health care on an as-needed basis, just like auto insurance or homeowners insurance.

The idea is sound, Tom.

Elliot

Well, Elliot, that's a strong statement to make considering you know absolutley nothing about me, you know not what I have been through, and my trials in life, and how I have dealt with them.

Am I depressed or not? I don't know, I refuse to go to a doctor to find out, or he/she would only shove pills down my throat. I do know I have had many of the textbook symptoms many times in my life due to various life expirences I have had.

I've pretty much had people kick the crap out of me my entire life. And I'm not here playing the violin, I'm making a point. I've had my share of days standing over bridge contemplating a jump, along with other such thoughts. Those who know me say I have a lot of undiagnosed medical issues, I just feel in some cases, the cure is worse than the disease.

Everybody handles problems a different way. As I've grown older though, Im learning to respect myself. Very few people see things my way, but the bible says that's the way it will be. I'm a firm believer in Gods plan for me. I don't know what that plan is, but if he wanted me to die that day, he would have had a gust of wind come and blow me over the ledge. Instead, at that very moment, he instilled a peace in me that no pill could ever do.

In fact, I see a lot of pill commercials where suicidal thoughts are a possible side effect.

Anyway, not going to go any further with that. I call a truce here. I respectfully ask that you not claim to know me or what I've been through, or what I know. I did marry a clinically depressed woman, and together, the two of us are working through it. She has been off her medication for 3 years now...

You know what's funny... she hasn't had a suicidal thought in... 3 years...
All the doctors and shrinks meant nothing, until we opened the bible and started living for God.

Food for thought...

And you can look through my archives and see the post where I blow off steam now and then regarding my wife. I won't say it's easy living with someone in this condition. But we are still married.

But I've been married to her for six years, 3 of which she was medicated, three of which she was not. The first year off her medication was rough, but the last two were better then the first three.

I thank God for that.

I do know depression is a complicated matter, but I don't believe the answer is in a pill, or drug. I don't know where the answer is. But I believe it has a lot to do with hard love and solid friends.

I've always found it a little strange that in the US an employer is 'expected' to contribute to an employees health insurance... I'm sure this must have paid a leading role in your suggestion that it is now a right.

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Originally Posted by Skell

I've always found it a little strange that in the US an employer is 'expected' to contribute to an employees health insurance... I'm sure this must have paid a leading role in your suggestion that it is now a right.

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That's another point I forgot to make. It seem to me that real health insurance is really no longer a benefit anymore.

Lets face it, all the major employers that had the great health plans have moved overseas. All that's left are the small to medium sized employers, and they don't offer great plans if any at all. Some do, but most don't. And those who do offer such at a very high premium. I have to pay $600 per month out of my own pocket to cover my family.
I hear the new administration wants to tax that too.

In today's economy, an employer doesn't really have to offer any perks at all. Even unions have no leverage anymore. All a factory has to do is just say "see ya, we'll just go to China!".

And that's that.

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Originally Posted by Skell

I've always found it a little strange that in the US an employer is 'expected' to contribute to an employees health insurance... I'm sure this must have paid a leading role in your suggestion that it is now a right.

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Absolutely true. But again, it started as a BENEFIT and somehow it became "the norm" in employee/employer relations, which in turn some people translated into "a right". But that was never the intent, nor is it the law. Yet people are demanding the "right" to health insurance, as if there was some legal basis for it. As if the fact that one person has it and someone else might not have it is a cause for government intervention to make everything "fair".

Elliot

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Originally Posted by andrewc24301

That's another point I forgot to make. It seem to me that real health insurance is really no longer a benefit anymore.

Lets face it, all the major employers that had the great health plans have moved overseas. All that's left are the small to medium sized employers, and they don't offer great plans if any at all. Some do, but most don't. And those who do offer such at a very high premium. I have to pay $600 per month out of my own pocket to cover my family.
I hear the new administration wants to tax that too.

In today's economy, an employer doesn't really have to offer any perks at all. Even unions have no leverage anymore. All a factory has to do is just say "see ya, we'll just go to China!".

And that's that.

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Yes. That is indeed all an employer has to do. They don't HAVE to offer medical insurance if they don't want to. The only reason to offer health insurance is to keep the best employees.

Medical insurance is not a right. Companies do not have to offer it. Neither does the government. That is exactly the point I'm making.

And as Tom pointed out, if employers were taken out of the equation, people would be free to negotiate with insurance companies for themselves, and insurance companies who are no longer getting business from large companies and who want to stay in business, will agree to what the people negotiate for. There is no need for employer-based health insurance. People would be free to build their own insurance policies or take packaged deals as they desire. And prices would be lower as companies competed for the business of individuals instead of the business of large companies.

You made a comment here that I would like to ask you about. You said that "all the major employers with great health plans" have gone overseas. Which companies are you speaking of? How many have gone overseas? How large are they? From my perspective, there have been companies that have outsourced quite a bit of their operations. But I have not seen any companies that have completely exited the American market. Even companies that outsource much of their operations have lots of American employees.

Furthermore, small and mid-sized companies employ more Americans than large companies ever did, and most of them offer some pretty good medical benefits. Companies of 10-500 employees employ MANY more people than Fortune 500 companies do because there are so many more of them.

So I question the basis for your statement that "all the major employers" have gone overseas.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by andrewc24301

Well, Elliot, that's a strong statement to make considering you know absolutley nothing about me, you know not what I have been through, and my trials in life, and how I have dealt with them.

Am I depressed or not? I don't know, I refuse to go to a doctor to find out, or he/she would only shove pills down my throat. I do know I have had many of the textbook symptoms many times in my life due to various life expirences I have had.

I've pretty much had people kick the crap out of me my entire life. And I'm not here playing the violin, I'm making a point. I've had my share of days standing over bridge contemplating a jump, along with other such thoughts. Those who know me say I have a lot of undiagnosed medical issues, I just feel in some cases, the cure is worse than the desease.

Everybody handles problems a different way. As I've grown older though, Im learning to respect myself. Very few people see things my way, but the bible says that's the way it will be. I'm a firm believer in Gods plan for me. I don't know what that plan is, but if he wanted me to die that day, he would have had a gust of wind come and blow me over the ledge. Instead, at that very moment, he instilled a peace in me that no pill could ever do.

In fact, I see a lot of pill commercials where suicidal thoughts are a possible side effect.

Anyway, not going to go any further with that. I call a truce here. I respectfully ask that you not claim to know me or what I've been through, or what I know. I did marry a clinically depressed woman, and together, the two of us are working through it. She has been off her medication for 3 years now.....

You know what's funny... she hasn't had a suicidal thought in.... 3 years....
All the doctors and shrinks meant nothing, until we opened the bible and started living for God.

food for thought....

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I'm going to get on my soapbox here for a moment. I hope you will indulge me for a little while.

Your post is interesting. However in the 4 years that I've been on Zoloft, I haven't had a suicidal thought, have been able to get up off my sofa and actually go to work and be a parent for my kids and do all the things that normal people do.

And I have been a religious person since I was born. "Finding G-d" was easy for me, but it didn't keep me from being depressed for the first 36 years of my life.

I wonder whether your wife has been suffering from clinical depression or dystymia. The symptoms are similar, though differing in degree. But the medicines that work to fix depression can often cause a negatie effect in those suffering from distymia. Regulating seratonin in a depressive or manic-depressive is a good thing. Regulating seratonin in a distymic may cause increased distymia.

Could your wife have been misdiagnosed?

In any case, if your experience has left you with a dislike for any medications whatsoever, you have taken away from your experiences the wrong lesson.

There is a prayer called the "Serenity Prayer" that is often used in 12-step programs. It goes like this:

God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.

You cannot change your wife's condition. Taking the proper medications to mitigate that condition is one of the things you CAN change. So is getting the correct diagnosis and figuring out which medications are correct for her. You seem to have mislaid the wisdom to know the difference, because you have placed the idea of medications and doctors into the category of things over which you have no control. You do have control over these things. If the meds she was taking before were the wrong meds, then find a new doctor who can proscribe the correct meds based on a correct diagnosis.

Finding G-d is important. My connection to G-d has been a HUGE part of my recovery from depression. But that connection alone is NOT enough. I can guarantee that your wife is still suffering from her emotional difficulties. Telling her to find G-d and just snap out of it without medical aid is foolish, and there might come a time when the depression is too strong for her to just find G-d and snap out of it.

I am living a happier, fuller life today with the proper medications than I ever did without them. I am also slowly tapering off the meds. I am taking 1/2 the dose today that I was taking a year ago, and hope to be off the meds completely within the next year or so. But I am doing it under medical supervision, and with the proper medications.

There's an old Hebrew saying: "Ein Somchim Al HaNess" "Don't rely on miracles." G-d will help you if you take the proper actions for yourself. But you should not just sit back and rely on him doing miracles for you if you aren't willing to do your part. Rejecting medical science completely and relying on your connection with G-d to do all the work is a case of relying on miracles. That's bad juju where I come from. You and your wife need to do your parts.

End of soapbox speech.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Again this shows a simplistic understanding of clinical depression and how it effects the human body. You seem to think that those suffering from depression should "just snap out of it" as if there were nothing wrong with them in the first place. You clearly have never suffered from the effects of clinical depression, and don't know anything about it. Yet you speak with such authority on a subject you know nothing about.

Elliot

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Exactly what I was going to say.

Elliot, that was a very well thought out and professional response. Thank you.
I won't claim to know everything about eveyone, different things work for different people. I'd agree that it is entirly possible that my wife has been misdiagnosed.

Part of this misdiagnosis could have been due to our lack of insurance at the time, where as, we would just go to who ever we could find to work with us.

Mental issues seem to be harder to get help for (financially speaking) then more main stream physical issues.

She was diagnosed thourgh an agency that dealt in uninsured/lower income people. When the medication she was prescribed had a bad side effect, she tried killing herself, and was sent down to the mental facility 2 hours away for a few weeks.

The whole ordeal was quite trying.

Right now, she seems okay, she has her days once in a while, it's mostly bitterness towards people who have wrong'ed her. She has had a rough upbringing, and a very disfuctional family.

Right now, I'm leaving it up to her. We talk about it once in a while. As a matter of fact, when I finally got her on my employers plan a few years back, we discussed going to see a different professional, and possibly trying some other medications. She decided that should would hold off. She's scared to death of having another pill mix up and winding up back at that horrid state funded facility.

Time will tell what feelings she is harboring. And we work through them as we come to them.

ZoeMarie: Please quote where I stated anywhere in this thread or others that any patient of any disease mental or physical should "just snap out of it". That's putting an unnecessary twist on what I stated.

There are some people who treat all diseases completley naturally (using herbal remedies and such). All though I do not practice this, I also don't condemn it either.

I'm not trying to be insensitive to anyone's condition. I believe I stated that it is my personal choice to avoid mind altering drugs. Just taking an excedrin, what with the caffene in it makes my hands jittery, and that's already more than I want to live with.

In closing, I have lived with my wife for 8 years, and married to her for 6, I know all to well you don't just "snap out of it".

And I've had a doctor pretty much screw up on a perscription with my step daughter once. Gave her two things that shouldn't be taken together, the pharmicist didn't catch it either, well, when she started screaming that the coffee table was coming out after her and sponge bob was trying to eat her one night, we found out the hard way what happens when medications are mis-dispensed.

You just have to be careful, and not so quick to take everything that someone offers you.

Just want to throw in a thought about depression, although it's off topic.

I began feeling depressed several years ago, nothing was right, no energy and no drive.

I am a Christian so I did not understand what was going on, UNTIL--

I was diagnosed with LOW THRYOID function. Once that was cleared up, all the symptoms left.

So I know that at least some of the time, there is an underlying defecincy of something.

Getting back on subject:

I've had many-a-year being uninsured. During these times, I always just figured that's just the way it is. Being an ordinary American male- you pretty much have to take care of yourself.

In order for private health care reform to really have an effect, major changes in policies must be enacted.

As it stands now, the government rewards you for having an employer based policy.

For instance:

(mind you as far as I know, these may vary state to state)

1) Only with an employer plan may you switch providers and not fall subject to pre-exsisting conditions.
For instance, if I change jobs but keep my insurance, my pre-exsisting conditoins remained covered. However if I am changing providers in a non employer plan, I may have to wait up to 12 months.

2) Employer based plans can be withdrawn for your paycheck pretax, where as other off the shelf plans you pay taxes on. (I understand this is slated to change soon, where as you will pay taxes irrigardless)

3) Health insurance companies tend to make plans cheaper for employers, even if they do not cover any portion of the premium. Also, employer based plans will stay lower if you file a claim. Where as an off the shelf plan, file a single claim and the premium may go up. God forbid you get cancer, and you are uninsurable.

Going to an off the shelf plan would not be wise for me or my wife because she has pre-exsisting conditions, we would be stuck with that plan forever.

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Originally Posted by galveston

Just want to throw in a thought about depression, although it's off topic.

I began feeling depressed several years ago, nothing was right, no energy and no drive.

I am a Christian so I did not understand what was going on, UNTIL--

I was diagnosed with LOW THRYOID function. Once that was cleared up, all the symptoms left.

So I know that at least some of the time, there is an underlying defecincy of something.

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That's an excellent point, and that was one of the first things she was tested for.

Good thought- excellent catch..

galveston has a point that sometimes there is a lack of something in the body that can be naturally addressed.
My wife was on antidepressants(covered under my insurance ) and they made the situation worse . She is now combating it through nutrition and supplementation and the careful monitoring of her nutrition levels by a doctor that knows what he is doing .(none of it covered in our plan ;but still the right treatment for her. )