[Wondergirl]

we chose Him

No. He chose us. We did nothing.

From The Formula of Concord --

2 Cor. 3, 5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think
Anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God. Rom. 3, 12: They
Are together become unprofitable. John 8, 37: My Word hath no place in you.
John 1, 5: The darkness comprehendeth (or receiveth) it not [the light]. 1
Cor. 2, 14: The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly
Signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the
Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are
Foolishness unto him; neither can he know them. 13] Much less will he
Truly believe the Gospel, or assent thereto and regard it as truth. Rom. 8,
7: The carnal mind, or the mind of the natural man, is enmity against God;
For it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be. And, in a
Word, it remains eternally true what the Son of God says, John 15; 5:
Without Me ye can do nothing. And Paul, Phil. 2, 13: It is God which
Worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. 14] To all godly
Christians who feel and experience in their hearts a small spark or longing
For divine grace and eternal salvation this precious passage is very
Comforting; for they know that God has kindled in their hearts this
beginning of true godliness, and that He will further strengthen and help
Them in their great weakness to persevere in true faith unto the end.

24] But before man is enlightened, converted, regenerated, renewed, and
Drawn by the Holy Ghost, he can of himself and of his own natural powers
Begin, work, or concur in working in spiritual things and in his own
Conversion or regeneration just as little as a stone or a block or clay. For
Although he can control the outward members and hear the Gospel, and to a
Certain extent meditate upon it, also discourse concerning it, as is to be
Seen in the Pharisees and hypocrites, nevertheless he regards it as
Foolishness, and cannot believe it. And in this respect he acts even worse
Than a block, inasmuch as he is rebellious and hostile to God's will, unless
the Holy Ghost is efficacious in him, and kindles and works in him faith
and other virtues pleasing to God, and obedience.

25] Thirdly, in this manner, too, the Holy Scriptures ascribe conversion,
Faith in Christ, regeneration, renewal, and all that belongs to their
Efficacious beginning and completion, not to the human powers of the
Natural free will, neither entirely nor half, nor in any, even the least or
Most inconsiderable part, but in solidum, that is, entirely, solely, to the
divine working and the Holy Ghost, as also the Apology teaches.
26] Reason and free will are able to a certain extent to live an outwardly
Decent life; but to be born anew, and to obtain inwardly another heart,
Mind, and disposition, this only the Holy Ghost effects. He opens the
Understanding and heart to understand the Scriptures and to give heed to
The Word, as it is written Luke 24, 45: Then opened He their understanding
That they might understand the Scriptures. Also Acts 16, 14: Lydia heard
Us; whose heart the Lord opened that she attended unto the things which
Were spoken of Paul. He worketh in us both to will and to do of His own
Good pleasure, Phil. 2, 13. He gives repentance, Acts 5, 31; 2 Tim. 2, 25. He
Works faith, Phil. 1, 29: For unto you it is given, in behalf of Christ, not
Only to believe on Him. Eph. 2, 8: It is the gift of God. John 6, 29: This is
The work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent. He gives an
Understanding heart, seeing eyes, and hearing ears, Deut. 29, 4; Matt. 13,
15. He is a Spirit of regeneration and renewal, Titus 3, 5. 6. He takes away
The hard heart of stone, and gives a new tender heart of flesh, that we may
Walk in His commands, Ezek. 11, 19; Deut. 30, 6; Ps. 51, 10. He creates us
In Christ Jesus to good works, Eph. 2, 10, and makes us new creatures, 2
Cor. 5, 17; Gal. 6, 15. And, in short, Every good gift is of God, Jas. 1, 17. No
One can come to Christ unless the Father draw him, John 6, 44. No one
Knoweth the Father, save him to whom the Son will reveal Him, Matt. 11,
27. No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor. 12, 3.
Without Me, says Christ, ye can do nothing, John 15, 5. All our sufficiency
Is of God, 2 Cor. 3, 5.

40] In the Small Catechism of Dr. Luther it is thus written: I believe that I
cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or
come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me through the Gospel,
enlightened me with His gifts, and sanctified and kept me in the true
faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole
Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true
Faith, etc.

41] And in the explanation of the Second Petition of the Lord's Prayer the
following words occur: How is this, done? When our Heavenly Father gives
us His Holy Spirit, so that by His grace we believe His holy Word and live a
godly life, etc.

42] These testimonies state that by our own powers we cannot come to
Christ, but God must give us His Holy Ghost, by whom we are enlightened,
sanctified, and thus brought to Christ through faith, and kept with Him;
and no mention is made either of our will or cooperation.

[Tj3]

No. He chose us. We did nothing.

I guess that Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy was wrong.

Acts 2:37-39
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
NKJV

As was Paul?

Rom 10:12-13
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
NKJV

[arcura]

Tj3,

If we could fully comprehend Him and how he acts, then He would no longer be an infinite God, but a God who was out equal.

I disagree. God is perfect, infinite and eternal in all His aspects. IF we could some how fully comprehend God we would still be mortals.

No matter how much knowledge we might be able to acquire we will still limited be morals.
So I do believe.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Think about this.
You said "we chose Him"
(John 6:44): Jesus addressed the crowd, «No one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise him up on the last day. It has been written in the Prophets: They shall all be taught by God. So whoever listens and learns from the Father comes to me.
It appears to me from that, that God The Father chose those who were or are to follow Jesus.
It also appears to me the due to our free will we could possibly chose not to follow our calling IF called by God to follow Jesus.
How do you think about that?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I disagree. God is perfect, infinite and eternal in all His aspects. IF we could some how fully comprehend God we would still be mortals.

No matter how much knowledge we might be able to acquire we will still limited be morals.

Precisely.

Being mortal, being so finite and so constrained by the time space continuum means that we can never comprehend an infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient being such as the one true God who created and holds heaven and earth in place.

[Wondergirl]

I guess that Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy was wrong.

The Holy Spirit was already at work so Peter could repent. It was not Peter doing it.

See Post #161.

[adam7gur]

Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

Tj3
I hope you understand that there is a huge difference between a jar and our God who created everything and everything is inside Him.There are many verses that tells us that every believer in Christ becomes or at least should become like Christ.Christ is unlimited so through Him I see myself unlimited too!God sees me that way , He created me like Him.He calls me also god and if He calls me like that then no doubt , I AM !
And if I AM , I have no limits of any kind! I AM is the name of God and if I realize and confess that I AM , then I AM like Him! I can do everything through Christ like Paul says.
God introduces Himself to Moses saying '' I AM that I AM '' , and we have to remember on our side what WE ARE and WE ARE sons and daughters of the I AM .I AM is our Father and every father gives his name to his children, so if I AM is the name of our Father , then I AM is our name also, and I AM is not just a name or a title, but it is God Himself!
What would you think if I tell you that ''before Abraham was, I AM?''
I AM not flesh and blood, I AM so much more!

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,
Think about this.
You said "we chose Him"

Where did I say that?

[Wondergirl]

He created me like Him.He calls me also god

God created us in His image, which does not mean "like Him" meaning also gods. Where does God call us gods?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Oops, sorry.
I looked back on this thread and it was Tj3 who said that.
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,
Oops, sorry.
I looked back on this thread and it was Tj3 who said that.
Fred

Thank you! I have always taken the stand that God has chosen us, not the other way around. God does all the work.

During the '80s, there was a bumper sticker, "I found God." Our minister always chuckled when he talked about it and said it should read just the opposite, "God found me."

[adam7gur]

God created us in His image, which does not mean "like Him" meaning also gods. Where does God call us gods?

Psalm 82: 6
John 10:34

[Tj3]

Psalm 82: 6
John 10:34

John 10 refers to Psalm 82 which is a condemnation of those who try to exalt themselves and who judge others in an unjust and unfair manner.

Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.

[Tj3]

The Holy Spirit was already at work so Peter could repent. It was not Peter doing it.

See Post #161.

So even when scripture says that WE must choose, you choose to interpret as meaning that we do not choose.

[Tj3]

Tj3
I hope you understand that there is a huge difference between a jar and our God who created everything and everything is inside Him.

There is also nothing in scripture which suggests that we become in existence from eternity when we receive Christ as Saviour. That is neither scriptural nor logical.

[Wondergirl]

So even when scripture says that WE must choose, you choose to interpret as meaning that we do not choose.

See Post #161. We do not choose to come to God. He has chosen us. Scripture does not ever say that we must choose, not with that level of meaning. (Yeah, yeah. I know you hate to think something is free, a gift, that you had nothing to do with getting it.)

[adam7gur]

John 10 refers to Psalm 82 ....

Exactly! This is the second testimony of what God says in Psalm 82 and as the law teaches it takes two witnesses to confirm every word,so Psalm 82 and John 10 are two witnesses that confirm the word!
If God says so , then it is so.I dare not add anything to that or take something out of that!

[adam7gur]

Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.

God Himself in Scripture in Psalm 82:6 clearly says '' I said , you are gods and sons of the Almighty '' and Jesus in John 10:34 repeats those same words testifying their truth!
I can see how our flesh blocks our view but we have to see things like God does!
If He says so , who am I to dissagree?
As for who chose who, it takes two witnesses to testify the truth , so yes God chose us and yes we chose God! We and God , two witnesses that confirm the truth!

[adam7gur]

There is also nothing in scripture which suggests that we become in existence from eternity when we receive Christ as Saviour. That is neither scriptural nor logical.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Son is the firstborn among many breathren and those who are conformed in His image are forknown and predestinated and those God called and justified and glorified.All those verbs are in past tense , so how can God call, justify, glorify someone if that someone does not somehow exist?
All those who belong to Christ exist IN CHRIST!!
So yes it is Scriptural and yes it is logical , maybe some find it hard to believe but then again isn't it hard to believe that God became flesh and dwelt among us?

Furthermore...
Matthew 8:22 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

How can a dead one bury someone else?But everyone who does not follow Christ is dead,or it is fair to say that those who follow Christ are alive.Those who do not follow Him do not exist, and those who do follow Him, exist!

To follow Christ is to exist and to exist is to be in His image and to be in His image is to be foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified!
AMEN!!

[Tj3]

We do not choose to come to God. He has chosen us. Scripture does not ever say that we must choose, not with that level of meaning.

I gave an example, but you told me that it doesn't mean what it says.

(Yeah, yeah. I know you hate to think something is free, a gift, that you had nothing to do with getting it.)

It is indeed free, but like any other gift that is indeed free, we can accept or reject it.