[Maggie 3]

Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will come unless the
Falling away comes first...
The time is coming when the majority of the church will abandom sound doctrine
And will instead endorse whatever teaching seems popular at the moment.
The way to combat such an error now is to stick close to Jesus and His teaching.We must anchor our faith in the Word of God, not in miraculous signs and wonders. Satan can counterfeit many of God's Works, and if we do not know Gods Word, we
May be duped by them.
Thess: 2-9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with
All power, signs, and lying wonders...

Be Prepared, Maggie 3

[Tj3]

Tj3 - I think it is shrinking back. I think in practice it is what the Israelites did with Moses. He was charged with bringing them to the Land of Promise but they kept wanting to go back to Egypt. Ultimately, I think it is this kind of spirit which characterizes apostatizing. It is the attitude of "I really liked Christianity and it made sense to me, but now I'm really not interested in it anymore." Like the parable of the sower relays, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature."

I hear what you are saying but that is not the message that the words or the context convey.

As I said earlier to Classy, the description of a saved person falling away in Hebrews 6 is so specific in not only speaking of the person Apostatizing, but also describing the attributes of a person who is saved, that I cannot imagine what could have been said to make it clearer. Elsewhere in scripture we have descripture of those who have fallen away, for example:

Rom 11:17-22
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, [fn] if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
NKJV

Note that those who fail to continue in God's goodness (salvation) will be cut off from the tree. Note that those grafted on to the tree are "partakers". Jews who are part of the tree are saved, those who are cut off are not. But here we have those who are saved (Gentiles) who are warned that they could be cut off. But it is dependent upon what they do (remain in God's goodness). In case you question whether grafting to the tree means they are saved, look at Romans 11:11.

Romans 11:11
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation [has come] to the Gentiles.
NKJV

Again, those who were grafted on (saved) are subsequently cut off for not remaining in God's goodness. If they were grafted on when they were saved, then can they still be saved when cut off?

[Tj3]

Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will come unless the
falling away comes first....
The time is coming when the majority of the church will abandom sound doctrine
and will instead endorse whatever teaching seems popular at the moment.

I think that time has arrived. In many cities now, Christians are having trouble finding sound churches. I had a woman contact me on my website about 10 years ago and tell me that it was hard finding a sound church in her city ( a medium to large US city), and I was shocked. A friend who was from that city confirmed that what she said was true. Now I have seeing the same problem in cities in many places in the world.

[jakester]

I hear what you are saying but that is not the message that the words or the context convey.

Hey, Tom -

I've got no problem with you disagreeing with me but come on, man, you can't keep me hanging like that... offer an argument for why you think I'm off base because I care enough to have my theology challenged. How do you think my interpretation of the parable does not fit into the context? I think that is where you were in disagreement with me, right?

You got to man up if you're going to tell someone you think their interpretation is wrong... especially someone who agrees with you about the importance of context. I still believe I have it right but I'll be willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint.

Thanks.

[Tj3]

Hey, Tom -

I've got no problem with you disagreeing with me but come on, man, you can't keep me hanging like that...offer an argument for why you think I'm off base because I care enough to have my theology challenged. How do you think my interpretation of the parable does not fit into the context? I think that is where you were in disagreement with me, right?

You gotta man up if you're going to tell someone you think their interpretation is wrong...especially someone who agrees with you about the importance of context. I still believe I have it right but I'll be willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint.

Thanks.

Jake,

Sorry, but after I posted that, I thought the same thing and added more to the post to clarify. Please go back and have another look.

Tom

[sndbay]

Good question--did Judas have free will? Or did God cause Judas to choose evil in order to make God's plan of salvation work out? Has God tweaked your free will to make you choose Him? Does predestination put God in a box?

But wasn't Judas part of God's plan for salvation? How could God then damn him?

Which takes us back to the original predestination question that was posed--"Was Judas' betrayal of Jesus a necessary, foreordained part of God's plan, or an unplanned act of free will on the part of Judas?"

Predestination is a term that refers to God's determination in advance that something will happen in accordance with His fixed purpose.
Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

To get back on the awareness to be predestinent. My answer would be yes, we are predestinent to God's calling. The entire comprehensiveness of the scripture in God's Word is the calling HE has offered to all souls unto godliness. We are also predestinent in free will, to answer that calling... (knowing that free will has a right and wrong answer)

So God has sent HIS will to be followed. And our Father sent HIS begotten Son. Christ the blood of the new testiment. Christ answered HIS Father's will to the letter of everything that is written, and Christ fulfilled HIS Father's will. (That walk is there for us to follow)

As for Judas, having been predestinent to God's calling...YES he was.. However Judas made his own way, which was his predestinent free will answer in choice to do as he did. God then used Judas's choice to bring goodness, and to example what can happen to any that deny God, in going their own way. (discern what Judas did as wrong) BUT (do not judge Judas's heart of soul)

God uses everyone as He molds them into the path they eventually take. Using them in attempt to bring goodness along their way. We can read that Judas repented, and the money was cast back. Did Judas reap from what he sowed.. YES

There will be those, that God in foreknown knowledge, has continually used in their own predestinent free will. Some have choosen to stay in darkness, sin of the world, and lust after a life they feel is best in their ways. God actually gives some their own delusion to what they have elected to follow. We can not judge anyone, yet we can discern right from wrong to follow righteousness. That righteousness is in Christ..

What it is worth to anyone is their choice. Which seed are you, beause that is what you will be held accountable for doing.

[Maggie 3]

Sndbay, I am not sure I understand all you have said, but I will think on it. I believe
God knows everything. It looks like predestination is one thing we cannot all
Agree on. Look at Rom. 11:33-36 "Yes, God's riches are very great, and His Wisdom
and Knowledge have no end! No one can explain the things God decides or understand
His ways. 34 As the Scripture says, "Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been able to give him advice ? 35 "No one has ever given God anything that He must
pay back." 36 Yes God made all things, and everything continues though Him and for
Him. To Him be the glory forever! Amen."
God is not in a time zone as we are, and so it is hard for us to think without putting
A time to things, we do not understand. God knows our heart, that I am thankfull for.
Think of it this way, a movie made about the beginning of time until the end of time, as
We know it--Genesis-----Revelation... I think He has seen the movie and knows the ending.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

[sndbay]

It looks like predestination is one thing we cannot all
agree on.

Yes it is the idea of what predestination means.. And I acknowledge each predestinent option giving by God to us.(HIS calling is 1, Free will choice is 2) Those options leds to a single predestinent ending of life or death. This is how I see it...

Look at Rom. 11:33-36 "Yes, God's riches are very great, and His Wisdom
and Knowledge have no end! No one can explain the things God decides or understand
His ways. 34 As the Scripture says, "Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been able to give him advice ? 35 "No one has ever given God anything that He must
pay back." 36 Yes God made all things, and everthing continues though Him and for
Him. To Him be the glory forever! Amen."

YES , To HIm be the glory forever Amen forsuch is the glory, praise honour He is ..

When we acknowledge that nothing of our lives could achieve the newness in life without the love HE sent in HIS begotten Son Christ Jesus. Then we can understand how everything continues through HIm and for HIM. We then hold that hope, which to me is in the 2 predestinent option of free will that brings life in HIM.

God knows our heart, that I am thankfull for.
Think of it this way, a movie made about the begining of time until the end of time, as
we know it--Genesis-----Revelation .....I think He has seen the movie and knows the ending.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

Agree, God does know the hearts of each and as scripture has shown us in what Paul could overcome in Christ, and did experienced in his life. From the womb of his mother, God knew Paul's heart. And how Paul would change and accept God's way. How goodness came from God's mercy shown to Paul, but also how Paul had to accept it, and walk in Christ.

Example: We are to plant ourselves in righteousness, to reap mercy... The mercy is HIS righteousness to give us ...
Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[Maggie 3]

Thank you Sndbay, I am still studying what
You are saying, thanks.

Blessing, Maggie 3

[sndbay]

Thank you Sndbay, I am still studying what
you are saying, thanks.

Blessing, Maggie 3

Hope u are feeling better. Take care..

[arcura]

I agree that "predestination is one thing we cannot all
agree on."
Fred

[Maggie 3]

Sndbay, I am better and getting back my
Strength. Thanks for asking.
Blessing, Maggie 3

[Maggie 3]

Fred, have you been gone? I haven't seen
Any posts from you for quite awhile. I hope you are well.

Blessings, Maggie 3

[arcura]

Maggie 3,
I have been here on different threads.
I'm getting along was well as can be expected for a guy with the several health problems that I have, thank God.
I'm glad to heard that you are better.
Fred

[adam7gur]

What makes me think in these verses is the phrase '' in Christ ''. Christ was before the foundation of the world and if I believe in Him , then I am in Him and because He was before the foundation of the world then IN HIM I was too!

[Tj3]

What makes me think in these verses is the phrase '' in Christ ''. Christ was before the foundation of the world and if I believe in Him , then I am in Him and because He was before the foundation of the world then IN HIM I was too!

Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

[arcura]

adam7gur,
Yes, I can see what you mean.
Spirituality is eternal while other things are not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[classyT]

Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

OK I had to read this over and over before I agreed with you on this... see you ARE more logical than I am.

BUT having said that, If God is out of our time and space... couldn't the verse mean what it says. We WERE chosen in HIM before the foundation of the world. In other words... what Jesus said... you have not chosen me.. but I have chosen you. The more I study this, the more I feel certain the verse means what it says and maybe, just maybe you are complicating it... :cool:

[arcura]

classyT,
I agree with you on this.
We are talking eternal spirituality.
Fred

[Tj3]

ok I had to read this over and over before I agreed with you on this.....see you ARE more logical than i am.

BUT having said that, If God is out of our time and space...couldn't the verse mean what it says. We WERE chosen in HIM before the foundation of the world. In other words....what Jesus said...you have not chosen me..but I have chosen you. The more i study this, the more I feel certain the verse means what it says and maybe, just maybe you are complicating it....:cool:

It does mean that God chose us, but we also chose Him. It is a balance that we cannot comprehend because we chose Him on the timeline, and He chose us while looking from the outside at the timeline. To say that one happened before or after is how we must see it because we cannot comprehend what it means to be outside of time. That is why we can never fully understanding nor explain how this happens.

Maybe I am complicating it, but keep in mind that a being who is the eternal, omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe is complicated. If we could fully comprehend Him and how he acts, then He would no longer be an infinite God, but a God who was out equal.