[Wondergirl]

I'm not sure. I'll let you know after I down a couple of cold ones to wash down my Friday in Lent Fish 'n' Chips :)

ooooh hoooo, now maybe we should start yet another thread on whether it's ok for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages! :p

We German Lutherans love our beer when we play euchre or pinochle. Hmmm, that reminds me... gotta put a few into the 'frig for later. (Just don't ask me to dance... verboten, or at least used to be.)

[450donn]

The Bible does not say so. Where do you think it does?

I ;)

Come on Rick you said this earlier "As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things)."

All I am asking is a simple where do you find this sort of thing even hinted at in the Bible?

[RickJ]

Euchre? You play Euchre?

DOG-GONE! I didn't know people in Illinois know Euchre.

And I have a little Deutsch too:

Ich kann Euchre spielen und kann kaltes Bier die ganze Nacht trinken!



:p:p

[RickJ]

Come on Rick you said this earlier "As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things)."

All I am asking is a simple where do you find this sort of thing even hinted at in the Bible?

Read my first reply in this thread.

[sndbay]

Others here have rightly pointed out that Christ is man's intercessor functioning as the high priest sacrificing himself as compensation for our sins. (Cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). “He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).” Being presented to God upon on death we are called to “cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.”

Joe,

Let me offer a few lines more of (1 John) that speaks further on this.. This first verse defines being perfected in love for God. That those who keep His Word are seen with passion and love towards God. Those that believe in walking in Christ, and being holy has he is holy.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, {{{{in him verily is the love of God perfected}}}} hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

In our worldly endeavors, we come into contact with sin. Sin is a moral evil that stains the soul, and afflicts the heart. But, those of us who merit entering into a communion with God are blessed to with the fullness of eternal life are united with the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant through purgatory's purification. JoeT

2:20 of 1 John references that those which are God's children have the Holy Spirit anointing which is smeared on them. (1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.)

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

[sndbay]

I find this way of putting it to be more than a little counterintuitive and even a bit tendentious (by design, perhaps?). The question isn't whether Christ's sacrifice was "good enough"; I can't imagine anyone who'd claim that it wasn't. The question is, rather, what is God's plan for salvation and how does that play itself out?

It plays itself out His Way.. Life with God or death by satan.. Lay down your ways, and follow Christ.

( Matthew 10:15) (Luke 18:17)

Take your hand and place it into Gods hand... Doing the will of God the Father, as Christ has shown the way..

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Passion and Love for God

From the beginning shown by God, the love and hope that we hold will rest upon Christ. It is the greatness in fellowship found in Christian faith, and the establish ways we can follow in Christ by His fulfillment of The Word of God. In evidence of Christ doing the Will of His Father, we too much do the Will of God. We must do what is pleasing in God's eye, in obedience to the act in righteousness. Confess and repent our iniquity, and transgressions in all our sin unto God. Confess and turn from contempt and foolish ways. For Christ showed us the Way... Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32) Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9) Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11) Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

~as a child of God I shall not fall away.... for God is with me

[Wondergirl]

Euchre? You play Euchre?

DOG-GONE! I didn't know people in Illinois know Euchre.

And I have a little Deutsch too:

Ich kann Euchre spielen und kann kaltes Bier die ganze Nacht trinken!!



:p:p

German Lutherans who love Euchre live everywhere. My mom is one and is from Idaho. My dad is one and was from Illinois. Big Euchre area is in western NY where we used to live, NW of Rochester. My dates with farm boys always included Euchre (or checking out the cornfields at midnight).

[JoeT777]

Joe,

Let me offer a few lines more of (1 John) that speaks further on this.. This first verse defines being perfected in love for God. That those who keep His Word are seen with passion and love towards God. Those that believe in walking in Christ, and being holy has he is holy.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, {{{{in him verily is the love of God perfected}}}} hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

2:20 of 1 John references that those which are God's children have the Holy Spirit anointing which is smeared on them. (1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.)

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

You're a great Christian, so let me ask a real stupid question, just humor me. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Wondergirl ,
If you do not confess your sins after they take place they will NOT be forgiven.
The Bible says that you must confess and ask for forgiveness.

That sounds very arminian - but regardless, that is a different topic and has nothing to do with the claims that somehow we can pay the rpice in part for our own sins by suffering in purgatory.

[Tj3]

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
NKJV

[JoeT777]

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
NKJV

"that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable."

Gee, seems you made a case for purgatory.

[Tj3]

"that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable."

Gee, seems you made a case for purgatory.

Don't see how. It see that He does the cleansing - we don't cleanse ourselves through suffering.

[Wondergirl]

"that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable."

Gee, seems you made a case for purgatory.

Not at all. The cleansing is by Jesus so God will find us acceptable again.

Heb. 1:3 And [Jesus] is the radiance of [God's] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[arcura]

sndbay,
Believe as you want to but the existence of Purgatory is also indicated in Holy Scripture as I have alread posted here.
Fred

[Tj3]

sndbay,
Believe as you want to but the existance of Purgatory is also indicated in Holy Scripture as I have alread posted here.
Fred

Fred,

You claim that purgatory is in scripture has been refuted.

[arcura]

Tj3,
That is just your opinion.
My opinion is the opposite of that.
I say no you have not.
You attempted to but faild.
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Tj3,
That is just your opinion.
My opinion is the opposite of that.
I say no you have not.
You attempted to but faild.
Fred

In the prayer thread, you said Christian saints on earth (the Bible calls us that) pray for each other. If we are saints on earth, what need have we of purgatory?

[JoeT777]

Not at all. The cleansing is by Jesus so God will find us acceptable again.

Heb. 1:3 And [Jesus] is the radiance of [God's] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Yes cleansing (purging of sin) is accomplished by Jesus in a state of being, i.e. purgatory. Such a state of being can occur at anytime, it doesn't always need to be in some spiritual afterworld.

I don't get it; you're saying the words in the verses at the same time denying the meaning.

Since you're a Saint on Earth, jumor me and answer thisl stupid question. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
I answer that for myself.
NO!!
I have never been that clean and when I die I hope I'll be cleaner than I am now but I still will not be perfectly clean for my human tendency to sin will still remain.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Yes cleansing (purging of sin) is accomplished by Jesus in a state of being, i.e. purgatory.

Heb 1:3-4
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Note that He Himself purged our sins (past tense) and then sat down at the right hand of the Father. When did He sit down?

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
NKJV

He sat down when He sacrificed Himself on the cross. That was when the purging took place.