[Tj3]

It's keys to the kingdom of heaven.

You are altering the words. Scripture says:

"the keys of the kingdom of heaven"

But I don't see that it makes any difference. However, since we agree that they keys refer to the kingdom of heaven. Please answer the question.

What do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

[Wondergirl]

What do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

I answered that in post #79.

Time for bed, am a working girl. Good night.

[Tj3]

I answered that in post #79.

Time for bed, am a working girl. Good night.

No, you did not. You gave additional details which appears to contradict earlier comments about what and how the keys are used. Earlier you said that they had nothing to do with salvation, and in post 79 you appear to be saying that they do relate to salvation. So the original question remains - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?


I am not sure why you are avoiding the question.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Yes, forgiveness of sins are necessary for salvation.
I'm glad you agree with that.
Fred

[arcura]

Joe,
Yes there is historical evidence that there were priest in the early Church.
Example, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, therefore a priest.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Who has the keys now?

It is told in scripture who holds the Keys... and it also tells us who the key is which will open the gates of heaven which no man can shut.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

The church which holds to the Key of David... Who is the key of David? = Christ, and His hertigate by flesh that walked on earth. The Word that was made flesh to show us the way. The Word which we are to eat, the bread of Life. The keys are Chirst's ways which He has shown us.. We are to walk in Christ as did Christ walk in His Father's will. There is no other way!

The angel told God of this church who by their works held true the Keys: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

The reward for that fellowship in Christ that hast kept the word of God's patience, So God wilt keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[sndbay]

Though all kingdoms and subgroups belong to Christ, not all follow what He says in His word. Some may follow in whole, some may follow in part, but just because all kingdoms and churches are under his authority as God, it is wrong to say that everything done by any kingdom or church is automatically of God. That is, more often than not, not true.

Second, even in churches where they do teach sound doctrine, not all who are in those churches are saved.

Third, Jesus Himself said that not all who profess to follow Him actually do.

Thus your whole thesis falls apart.

So true, and it is shown in scripture in the words to the the churches. Each are weak, but one did rest on Christ, and remained in His strength holding true to His words. Rather then the norm who teach the fellowship of man, and make void the word of God. They do tempt God, and do try His patiences.
And a second one will suffer tribulation but are promises if they remain faithful shall not be hurt of the seond death.
The remaining 5 must repent!

Christ made us kings and priest unto God His Father. (Revelation 1:6) To Christ be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[sndbay]

Joe,
1 Tim 3: 15"the household of God, which is The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Therefor you are right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 Tim 3:15
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth..

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Deny himself = deny man's ways

take up his cross = suffer to the righteousness of God's will

follow me = as Christ walked in his Father's Will

This would be as Christ has shown for fellowship as priests in the house of God so to do.. all glory and praise to Christ Jesus...

[sndbay]

A couple of problems with this logic:

The power of the OT priesthood to act as the mediator between God and man was ended when Jesus died and was resurrected, and when the curtain was torn which separated the Holy of Holies from the people. No longer was their a barrier, but with Jesus as the High Priest of our confession, we can come directly before the throne of God.

Heb 7:28
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
NKJV


Heb 7:22-24
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
NKJV

Exactly...Because this includes any church that leads with authority should not, even in weakness, think they can change what is written to include man's ways. Because Christ clearly stated to follow His way doing the will of God. We are to do what is pleasing in God's eye, and God the Father was known to say He was pleased in Christ His begotten Son.

I Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Shepherds protect and lead their sheep .. anointed by Christ, those who follow ...

I Cor 3:6-7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

I Cor 3:8-9 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

husbandry = the field of the world = all belong to the Creator who is the power and strength over our weaknesses.

[sndbay]

Agreed. Even still, you're being too myopic, nobody said that God wasn't the focus.

Short sighted or myopic is in not being able to see according to His divine power which gives unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue. That by Christ and all that He has promised we might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Also giving us all diligence, to add to our faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Clearly one who sees that it is Christ that gives all is "not short sighted"..

2 Peter 2:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In fact all of Catholic faith centers on Christ, centers on God, centers on the Holy Spirit. So where is the lie?

JoeT

The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[Tj3]

Joe,
Yes there is historical evidence that there were priest in the early Church.
Example, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, therefore a priest.

Oh Fred, you keep up with the old line. Not only is there no historical or Biblical evidence, even if he were a bishop of Rome, that would not make him a priest.

[arcura]

sndbay,
You said, "The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
So who do you claim is telling the lie?
It certainly is NOT The Catholic Church for it DOES "proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

It certainly is NOT The Catholic Church for it DOES "proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Do you agree with these statements? Or will you join me in saying that these statements are wrong?

"And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary"

"...we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to mary and call on her holy name, than we should if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour;"

[Tj3]

Wondergirl, just in case you are awake and home from work, I am still interested in your answer.

No, you did not. You gave additional details which appears to contradict earlier comments about what and how the keys are used. Earlier you said that they had nothing to do with salvation, and in post 79 you appear to be saying that they do relate to salvation. So the original question remains - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

[arcura]

Tj3,
I ask Mary to play to Jesus for me some time.
That's it.
That's what I believe.
I believe that the saints can pray for us and Mary is a special one of them being the Mother of God the Son.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I ask Mary to play to Jesus for me some time.
That's it.
That's what I believe.
I believe that the saints can pray for us and Mary is a special one of them being the Mother of God the Son.
Fred

Then are you saying that you agree with these statements?

"And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary"

"...we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to mary and call on her holy name, than we should if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour;"

[JoeT777]

The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life

Change what is written? Nobody has changed what was written. No, more cunning games are played by forces that oppose God. Why change the writing, after all there must be thousands, likely millions, of copies of Scripture. Can you imagine running around the world with pen and eraser scrubbing out words and writing in new ones? But, why rub out written words when you can simply change the meaning of the written word? Better still, make the words subjective, different meaning for different folks.

Too smart for that? Consider this. The Holy Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, its leaders chosen by Christ, Her scriptures inspired by God, universally ministering One faith to 50 or more generations, always teaching the same One, Holy, and Apostolic faith in Christ. Not for a few decades, nor a few centuries, rather for two millennia. Each day, each month, each year, faithfully ministering to the Divine institution of the Mass for two millennia. Proof of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is reveled in both Scripture and Tradition.

Two thousand years, 50 generations, two hundred decades; this spans across most of mankind's history on this little green marble; a length of time nearly impossible for man to grasp. And for all of these millennia we have understood and believed in the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And now, you would suggest that it's a lie. If so then our God is indeed cruel, because it would be His lie. But, rather than re-write the words, Wyclif, Luther, and others chose simply to change the meaning. Why with their god-like wisdom, less than 500 years ago, decided that the Apostles didn't mean what the Church faithfully taught for all this time. Why change the written word, when with propaganda the entire meaning can be turned up-side down?

Lies? To make a lie of the Catholic Church is to destroy all of Christendom; the devil's work for sure.

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Well said.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Fred

[Wondergirl]

But, rather than re-write the words, Wyclif, Luther, and others chose simply to change the meaning. Why with their god-like wisdom, less than 500 years ago, decided that the Apostles didn’t mean what the Church faithfully taught for all this time. Why change the written word, when with propaganda the entire meaning can be turned up-side down?

Luther loved the Church and had no intention of leaving it. He was excomunicated for daring to state out loud that people don't have to pay money before God will forgive their sins. The Lutheran Church kept much of the liturgy, music, and trappings of the Catholic Church, plus most of the doctrines.

[arcura]

Wondergirl.
That is true.
For 30 years I was a Lutheran.
But now I have come Home to The Church.
Fred