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***EDITED**** We are not going to address the previous posts which have been closed for varoius reasons, we can address the new question : Fr Chuck >>>
Part 4: can we find in early history and scripture evidence of Bishops, priests, and deacons?
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
There is considerable evidence for bishops and deacons. I will limit my comments to what we find in scripture:
Phil 1:1-2
1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV
1 Tim 3:1-7
3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
NKJV
Titus 1:6-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
NKJV
Phil 1:1-2
1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV
1 Tim 3:8-13
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given too much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV
As for priests, at the death and resurrection of Christ, the priesthood that previously existed was done away with, and a new priesthood of all believers was created.
1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
"Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
NKJV
1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
NKJV
And we have one high priest:
Heb 3:1-3
3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
NKJV
Therefore all who have received Christ as Saviour are priests.
I do believe that often what we think of as Bishops today, and the bishop of the bible are the issue, the Bishop of the early church would be what I call the pastor or priest of the local church.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I would differentiate on the use of the word priest because in the NT, the word for priest, hiereus, is only used for the priests in the temple and for Jesus as our high priest (archiereus). The words used for bishop (episkopos) is different.
All believers are priests:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Amongst these nation of priests are they who are called to minister to the priesthood of believers of God. These are the Ministerial Priests:
Luke 22: 26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Acts 6:2
Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1 Cor 7 32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
Amongst the ministerial priests, are they who feed the entire Church. The elders or Bishops:
Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Acts 15:22
Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Acts 21:18
And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1 Peter 5:1
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Where in scripture do you find the term "ministerial priests"? In studying scripture I find all believers caslled priests, and only one person is given a higher office as a priest and that is Jesus who is called singularly the "High Priest".Quote:
Amongst these nation of priests are they who are called to minister to the priesthood of believers of God. These are the Ministerial Priests:
I find no mention in scripture of a priestly office within the church.
There is another word used in the NT for priest, and that is "presbuteros". And then there are the episkopoi, the bishops. Also the diaconate: In Acts 6 deacons were ordained by the Apostles for a specific ministry and received the laying on of hands. These are all priestly offices and were recognized as such by all the first and second century witnesses that have come down to us (e.g. the Didache, 1 & 2 Clement, Ignatius of Antioch, the Shepherd of Hermas, etc.). While it is true that Christ is the High Priest of the Church, this in no way militates against an ordained priesthood, established and expanded through the laying on of hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You believe in the Trinity don't you? I don't see it in Scripture, why do you believe it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
In the same way, the term "ministerial priest" is not seen in Scripture. But Scripture illustrates the concept as is seen in the verses I posted.
Presbuteros is more properly translated as "elder". You'd be hard pressed to find a translation of the Bible translating presbuteros as priest other than Bible specific to Catholic denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
The trinity is described throughout scripture. Later when I am home, I could recommend a couple of good books that would help guide you through the scriptures if you are unaware as to where the trinity is found in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I disagree that these references describe a priest at all.Quote:
In the same way, the term "ministerial priest" is not seen in Scripture. But Scripture illustrates the concept as is seen in the verses I posted.
Not really. Some "denominational" translations render "presbuteros" as "elder". Better translations just transliterate the Greek to read "presbyter" since the word doesn't have an exact English equivalent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Either way, there clearly was a hierarchy in the ecclesial structure of the Church in the NT, including, as I mentioned in my last post, both episkopos and diakonos. I'm not sure what you mean to deny when you deny that there is evidence of a ministerial priesthood, but it is evident that episkopos, presbuteros, and diakonos are ecclesial positions or roles within an ecclesiastical hierarchy. The earliest Christian writings outside the NT bear further and even more detailed witness to this, writings composed by people who knew and worked with the Apostles. So it is unclear to me what you take yourself to be opposing here.
Nowhere does Scripture say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are homoousios. Neither does it say that they are three hypostases of one ousia, nor that each is a prosopon or person. Scripture never explains the ekporeusis of the Spirit. And yet you believe in the Trinity: I have seen you affirm the Nicene Creed in this very forum. If you really are a sola scripturist then by your own lights you would have to reject the doctrine of the Trinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
However, the word does not imply "priest".Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
As you may not have noted, I already said that myself. A priest is a specific office, though.Quote:
Either way, there clearly was a hierarchy in the ecclesial structure of the Church in the NT, including, as I mentioned in my last post, both episkopos and diakonos.
This is not the right thread to get into this in more detail, but if you really believe that, I have trouble believing that you have studied in any depth what scripture says about the nature of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
De Maria
I agree that the term elder in the bible can be and has been understood by many theologians as "priest" and ordained as such.
Akoue...
I also agree with you and so does early Church history.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
But again, the original word does not carry that denotation, and those theologians would be Catholic, not non-Catholic.lQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Yj3
That is your opinion.
Thanks for sharing it.
Fred
Yes, and the Catholic Church and all those who understand that Presbytery is priesthood, all came before the Reformers reinterpreted the word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Presbytery may refer to:
* Presbytery (church polity), a governing body of ordained elders and ministers
* Presbyterium, a body of ordained, active priests in the Roman Catholic or Anglican churches
* Presbytery (architecture), the area of a church building reserved for the clergy
* Presbytery (residence), or "rectory", the home of one or more Roman Catholic priests
De Maria,
Points well made.
Fred
Then they did not understand Greek. Those who penned the Bible understood that the priesthood which added as a mediator between God and man (which is also the meaning of Pontiff) was done away with when Jesus died and was resurrected. That is why we now have a priesthood of all believers, because those who are saved can come before God in the name of our one and only high priest, Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
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