[Akoue]

On Psalms 8.6:

The Hebrew word translated "angel" is actually "elohim". The Septuagint rendered this as "aggelos" (pronounced angelos), and hence the translation given above. But the Hebrew reads: "You have made them a little less than a god (or a little less than gods)." Either way, the meaning is clearly that God created human beings to be nearly equal to the beings of the heavenly realm.

Hope this helps.

[De Maria]

On Psalms 8.6:

The Hebrew word translated "angel" is actually "elohim". The Septuagint rendered this as "aggelos" (pronounced angelos), and hence the translation given above. But the Hebrew reads: "You have made them a little less than a god (or a little less than gods)." Either way, the meaning is clearly that God created human beings to be nearly equal to the beings of the heavenly realm.

Hope this helps.

Oh where o where has Akoue gone? Oh where o where can he be?

[JoeT777]

On Psalms 8.6:

The Hebrew word translated "angel" is actually "elohim". The Septuagint rendered this as "aggelos" (pronounced angelos), and hence the translation given above. But the Hebrew reads: "You have made them a little less than a god (or a little less than gods)." Either way, the meaning is clearly that God created human beings to be nearly equal to the beings of the heavenly realm.

Hope this helps.

Juan:

Doesn’t Akoue’s opinion validate my statement that in God's creation, man is above the angels? But, before I gloat maybe I need ask if in Heb 1:4 uses the same ‘elohim’. The inference here is that Christ is made, like man better than the angles. "Being made so much better than the angels as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they I" (Heb 1:4).


JoeT

[Maggie 3]

Fred... We are all living under the curse of sin. Sickness, disease, disasters, any of these things can strike us in this world that we live in today. And we will until Jesus comes to redeem us. This is our hope " Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer " (Romans 12;12 ).
Love and blessings,

MAGGIE 3

[De Maria]

Juan:

Doesn’t Akoue’s opinion validate my statement that in God's creation, man is above the angels? But, before I gloat maybe I need ask if in Heb 1:4 uses the same ‘elohim’. The inference here is that Christ is made, like man better than the angles. "Being made so much better than the angels as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they I" (Heb 1:4).


JoeT

That sounds logical to me. It sounds as though the context would have that being the angels and not the gods.

[Akoue]

Juan:

Doesn’t Akoue’s opinion validate my statement that in God's creation, man is above the angels? But, before I gloat maybe I need ask if in Heb 1:4 uses the same ‘elohim’. The inference here is that Christ is made, like man better than the angles. "Being made so much better than the angels as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they I" (Heb 1:4).


JoeT

Hi Joe,

Heb.1.4 has aggelon, angels. It's fair to say that it is based on the Septuagint rendering of the Hebrew of Ps.8.6. In other words, it is based on a Greek mistranslation of the Hebrew.

[Akoue]

Oh where o where has Akoue gone? Oh where o where can he be?

Akoue has been dealing with the dismantling and rebuilding of a bathroom in his house. Ugh!

But it's done which means he can now do his part to breed confusion and consternation among you all. Hahahahaha!

[JoeT777]

Akoue has been dealing with the dismantling and rebuilding of a bathroom in his house. Ugh!

But it's done which means he can now do his part to breed confusion and consternation among you all. Hahahahaha!

Ha!Ha!

WAIT! You did hire it out, didn't you?

JoeT

[De Maria]

Akoue has been dealing with the dismantling and rebuilding of a bathroom in his house. Ugh!

But it's done which means he can now do his part to breed confusion and consternation among you all. Hahahahaha!

Did you remember to turn the water back on?

Hi Joe,

Heb.1.4 has aggelon, angels. It's fair to say that it is based on the Septuagint rendering of the Hebrew of Ps.8.6. In other words, it is based on a Greek mistranslation of the Hebrew.

So, which is greater/more perfect by nature, man or angel?

[Akoue]

Ha!Ha!

WAIT! You did hire it out, didn't you?

JoeT

All right, you, that's hitting below the belt. And, no, I'm not going to answer. You can infer from that whatever you like.

[Akoue]

Did you remember to turn the water back on?

Oh, man, I'm getting it from all sides!

So, which is greater/more perfect by nature, man or angel?

I think angels are greater by nature. Angels are rational, spiritual beings without the sorts of bodily desires that afflict us. And, of course, according to some traditions, Satan fell because he was appalled that despite the loftiness of the angelic nature God loved humans more.

In any case, angels aren't subject to contingency: they don't die, their bodies don't decay, and they enjoy an immediacy with God that would kill us (Moses only glimpsed God's backside and look what it did to him). They are messengers because they are faithful, they can be trusted to convey the Divine word. Their love is pristine, untainted by selfishness or self-interest. Our higher faculties (the ones Aquinas talks about so much), the spiritual and intellectual faculties, are a dim reflection of the spiritual and intellectual being of the angels, this because in us these faculties are married to appetive and sensuous faculties of which the angels are free.

I also think that Ps.-Dionysius is right, that the earthly liturgy is a recapitulation of the divine liturgy of the angels and that the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the Church is a recapitulation of the celestial hierarchy of the angels.

Okay, take your shots. I've got it coming!

[JoeT777]

Oh, man, I'm getting it from all sides!



I think angels are greater by nature. Angels are rational, spiritual beings without the sorts of bodily desires that afflict us. And, of course, according to some traditions, Satan fell because he was appalled that despite the loftiness of the angelic nature God loved humans more.

In any case, angels aren't subject to contingency: they don't die, their bodies don't decay, and they enjoy an immediacy with God that would kill us (Moses only glimpsed God's backside and look what it did to him). They are messengers because they are faithful, they can be trusted to convey the Divine word. Their love is pristine, untainted by selfishness or self-interest. Our higher faculties (the ones Aquinas talks about so much), the spiritual and intellectual faculties, are a dim reflection of the spiritual and intellectual being of the angels, this because in us these faculties are married to appetive and sensuous faculties of which the angels are free.

I also think that Ps.-Dionysius is right, that the earthly liturgy is a recapitulation of the divine liturgy of the angels and that the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the Church is a recapitulation of the celestial hierarchy of the angels.

Okay, take your shots. I've got it coming!

I didn’t like that answer. Go back to plumbing! Besides you probably don’t know what a pipe wrench is any how!


JoeT

[Akoue]

Something I should have said:

The angels are higher in the order of beings or natures, but this does not mean that they are favored above humans. Notice that the fallen angels did not lose their angelic natures: They are lower than us on the moral hierarchy, but still higher on the ontological hierarchy (the hierarchy of being). My take on this is that God's love is not determined by placement on the hierarchy--this is another reason that I do hold that animals can love and worship God in a manner appropriate to them, and that they can in turn experience God's love. St. Irenaeus acknowledges this at, e.g. Adversus haereses 4.38.4, when he says of animals that "each one, just as he has been created, gives thanks that he has been created". And St.Gregory Nazianzen and St.Augustine both believe that animals worship God, because God created them in such a way as to be capable of worship according to their nature.

Remember that all of creation is a vestigium of God. What makes humanity special is that we are not just a vestigium, but also the image, of God. Angels are similitudes or God, not images of God. We lost the similitude through sin and regain it by grace. So we get the following picture:

Human beings with grace: similitudo
Human beings as nature: imago
All beings: vestigium

It might also help to have scholastic anthropology in mind.
Human beings are rational animals. Our soul is our form, our body our matter. The spiritual faculties (through which we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit) of intellect and will are both formal and material, because we are form (soul) and matter (body). And we have to distinguish the spiritual faculties from the inner senses of common sense (sensus communis), memory, cognition, imagination, and judgment.

Angels have spiritual faculties, and like us, they can use them well or badly. But these higher faculties give them a greater intimacy with God than we can, at this time, even begin to fathom.

[cozyk]

I must be missing something because all I can think of as I try to follow all of this is...

Much ado about nothing!

[Akoue]

I didn’t like that answer. Go back to plumbing! Besides you probably don’t know what a pipe wrench is any how!


JoeT

See what you get? If you hadn't challenged my masculinity I would happily have gone along with everything you've said.

[JoeT777]

See what you get?! If you hadn't challenged my masculinity I would happily have gone along with everything you've said.

I’ll remember that next time – well have called in a ‘real’ plumber yet?

[Akoue]

I’ll remember that next time – well have called in a ‘real’ plumber yet?

I'm not listening...


And now we should stop otherwise De Maria's very nice thread is going to end up getting closed.

[cozyk]

Akoue disagrees: Then don't participate. If you have something to offer, by all means do. If not, no one is holding a gun to your head.

Ooh, did I step on a sensitive toe?? Call me an optimist. I kept reading on in hopes of finding some real substance rather than bickering back and forth and back and forth again.

[JoeT777]

Ooh, did I step on a sensitive toe??? Call me an optimist. I kept reading on in hopes of finding some real substance rather than bickering back and forth and back and forth again.

The opening proposition was, “Did Christ die to redeem Creation or just man?”

As for my part in the discussion, my argument was essentially God only redeems man. The reason presented was that the Remainder of Creation had proclaimed good and as such Creation had no need to be redeemed, only man.

As presented in post no. 5

It seems to me that the primary objection to the argument that ‘Christ redeems all Creation’ is that all of Creation, except man, is already in harmony with God, perfect in accordance with God’s will. Only man has fallen, presumably because he [is a rational being] which gives him the unenviable propensity for sin. Thus, man finds himself in need of redemption to re-establish the harmony of Creation. And too, saying God redeems his Creation is to say Creation was not made good in the eyes of the Creator; which we know not to be true. All things created by God were made good and pronounced good by God.

Arcura hasn’t come straight out and said it but I think he agrees with this position.

De Maria and Maggie 3 have indicated their position that God does indeed redeem all Creation.

At my request, Akoue provided an opinion on the interpretation of a verse. It appears that he was doing some plumbing work – which is where the bantering came in - never mess with a man who has a pipe wrench in his hands – especially if he can’t plumb!

So, besides standing there stirring the caldron; where do you stand?

JoeT

[cozyk]

I still stand at much ado about nothing.