[N0help4u]

Yeah so the golden rule would not have likely started with 'them' since 'they' are not a 'they'.

[Alty]

Hello again:

The thing is, when you're talking about atheists, there is no "they". They don't go to a church. They don't join atheist clubs. They don't operate as a group. They don't subscribe to a particular philosophy...

As a matter of fact the only thing atheists have in common is what they DON'T believe - not what they DO.

excon

True, and Cred wasn't saying that the Golden rule originated from an Atheist, he's just saying that it didn't originally come from the bible.

I don't know who's right, I'm just here to learn. :)

[N0help4u]

Technically it didn't originate with Jesus or Christians
It originated with Moses and the Jews
Jesus simply put it in a simpler boiled down sentence.

I would be interested in finding the original history it would be interesting I am sure.
So far I found this
http://www.personal.kent.edu/~jwattles/GRquotes.htm

And

I did find on wikianswers
The Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a paraphrase of a line from Matthew 7:12 in the New Testament. Hillel's precept restates the idea more directly: Do not do unto others what you don't want done to yourself.

FURTHER

Hillel's version is certainly a precept that may follow. However, there is a difference between his advise and Jesus' "Golden Rule."

The words of Jesus to "Do unto others" is a proactive command, and for a positive benefit to others, that is "as you would have them do unto you." In other words, do something positive. ' Don't just sit there. Go and do good to others.'

Hillel's words are more passive, suggesting that 'you don't necessarily have to do anything good to others, just as long as you aren't doing anything bad to them, that's fine.'

[Credendovidis]

The Golden Rules is as old as humanity : by serving the interests of the tribe or group you belong to, you serve your own interests just as well.

So it is much older than the time of "Moses and the Jews".

That is why you find the Golden Rule in almost every philosophic and/or religious view also.
Every religion from long before the era described in the Old Testament had the Golden Rule already as one of it's corner stones.

So the Golden Rule is part of us all, and surely did not originate from the Bible. The Bible just used the Golden Rule as almost all other religions did.

The Golden Rule started as a survival measure, but over time evolved also as basis for moral and ethical thinking.

Atheists use the Golden Rule for the above explained reasons, just as every religion does.

You do not need a supernatural entity to understand that if you are nice to others, your chances that others are nice to you do improve considerably...

:)

.

.

.

[N0help4u]

I agree and that is why I said it would be interesting to find the historic origins before Moses. I enjoy history of tribes and their customs.

[excon]

Hello again:

You know, I'll betcha stone aged people practiced the golden rule even though they didn't have language and didn't even know that that's what they were doing. They were just surviving, and tribes wouldn't survive WITHOUT practicing that particular rule.

So, in my view, it's a survival thing rather than a religious thing.

excon

[Tj3]

It are religious fundamentalists like Tj3 who CLAIM that the Golden Rule is of biblical origin, which it certainly is not !!!

What I said, Cred, was that it was Biblical. You are claiming that it came from a source prior the source that the Bible got it from, and we are still waiting for you to validate your cute story about it's origins. But each time that we ask, you avoid the question.

[N0help4u]

What I said, Cred, was that it was Biblical. You are claiming that it came from a source prior the source that the Bible got it from, and we are still waiting for you to validate your cute story about it's origins. But each time that we ask, you avoid the question.

Basically what I gathered when I asked my ? In post #117
I figured you were claiming the first written proof of the golden rule was the Bible.

[Tj3]

Tom is claiming that the Golden rule originated in the bible and that it isn't something that Atheists abide by. So both.

Sigh! So many people like to speak for others. I guess that is easier than asking questions.

I did not say that it originated in the Bible. - I am saying that it is a Biblical concept - I am saying that the God of the Bible is the source.
I am saying that Cred is unable to validate his story
I am saying that Cred is unable to show an older source.

When you find a similar concept in a variety of sources, though it is possible for it to have originated independently, it is more likely that it had a single source. In this case, it is clear that the God of the Bible is the source, and that is why we find it in the Bible. The Bible is therefore the record closest to the source, and therefore the remainder of the similar statement are secondary.

He claims that some Atheists do follow this rule but that it is not a set standard for them to live by, whereas it is a set standard for a Christian.

I did not say that either.

I said that it could be followed by anyone, but when you say that you treat others the way that you should be treated, it is relative to what you thing is an appropriate way to be treated. THus for an atheist, that can vary over time since there is no absolute standard of right and wrong. For a Christian there is an absolute standard - the Bible.

[Tj3]

Basically what I gathered when I asked my ? in post #117
I figured you were claiming the first written proof of the golden rule was the Bible.

Actually I am saying that it is the God of the Bible since all scripture comes from God.

[Tj3]

The Golden Rules is as old as humanity : by serving the interests of the tribe or group you belong to, you serve your own interests just as well.

So it is much older than the time of "Moses and the Jews".

That is why you find the Golden Rule in almost every philosophic and/or religious view also.
Every religion from long before the era described in the Old Testament had the Golden Rule already as one of it's corner stones.

So the Golden Rule is part of us all, and surely did not originate from the Bible. The Bible just used the Golden Rule as almost all other religions did.

The Golden Rule started as a survival measure, but over time evolved also as basis for moral and ethical thinking.

Atheists use the Golden Rule for the above explained reasons, just as each and every religion does.

You do not need a supernatural entity to understand that if you are nice to others, your chances that others are nice to you do improve considerably ....

I am still waiting for you to show us an older source than the Biblical source. So far all you have done is made claims, opinions and show lists of documents that you say are older.

And as I responded before, let's look at the two assumptions that come from this:

1) You are assuming that the source is not Biblical. So far you offered no evidence for that. You assume that some other documents are older than the first instance of this in the Bible, but you have not validated that statement.

2) Second, you have not validated why you believe the source to be not Biblical. This appears to be point that you have missed. Usually where similar things appear in difference document (and for the time being, let's assume that to be the case), it typically refers to a common source. All you have done is identify some documents that you claim to have existed and claim to have been older than the Bible (a point which remains unvalidated in any case), but you have not addressed the point that the source itself of the Bible is God, and in such a case, God would be the likely primary source.

[Alty]

I did not say that it originated in the Bible.
I am saying that it is a Biblical concept.
I am saying that the God of the Bible is the source.
I am saying that Cred is unable to validate his story
I am saying that Cred is unable to show an older source.

Okay, just so I understand.

So you're saying that before the bible was written the Golden rule came from God. How can you verify that?

You say it's a biblical concept, isn't that the same as saying that you believe it originated in the bible?

I think I'm missing something here. Please explain where I went wrong.

[Tj3]

Okay, just so I understand.

So you're saying that before the bible was written the Golden rule came from God. How can you verify that?

Well scripture says that it is inspired by God, and since God is omniscient, He did not get it from the Bible.

You say it's a biblical concept, isn't that the same as saying that you believe it originated in the bible?

No. It is Biblical because the Bible is the word of God. But the Golden rule came from God since all scripture is inspired by God. I think that we are dealing with semantics.

[Alty]

Okay, I get what you're saying now.

Like I said, I have no idea where the Golden rule originated from, I'm just here to learn.

I'm sorry if I misquoted you I thought I had it right, that's why I wanted to clear it up, make sure I understand.

Peace. :)

[N0help4u]

That is why the only way to really answer this is to show written historic proof that a tribe before Moses time followed something that could be considered 'the golden rule. Otherwise this is going no where.

[NeedKarma]

No. It is Biblical because the Bible is the word of God. But the Golden rule came from God since all scripture is inspired by God. I think that we are dealing with semantics.

So all those other religions that have a similar moral have all been inspired by your god?

Some "Ethic of Reciprocity" passages from the religious texts of various religions and secular beliefs:

• Bahá'í Faith:
  
  • "Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
  • "And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
  
  
• Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "
• Buddhism:
  
  • "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
  • Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18
  
  
• Christianity:
  
  • "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
  • "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.
  • "...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).
  
  
• Confucianism:
  
  • "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
  • "Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
  • "Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4
  
  
• Ancient Egyptian:
  
  • "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. 3
  
  
• Hinduism:
  
  • This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517
  
  
• Humanism:
  
  • "(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
  • "(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 4
  • "Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3
  
  
• Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5
• Jainism:
  
  • "Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.
  • "In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
  • "A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33
  
  
• Judaism:
  
  • "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
  • "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
  • "And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6
  
  
• Native American Spirituality:
  
  • "Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
  • "All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
  • "Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.
  
  
• Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."
• Shinto:
  
  • "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
  • "Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga
  
  
• Sikhism:
  
  • Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
  • "Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
  • "No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299
  
  
• Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.
• Taoism:
  
  • "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.
  • "The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49
  
  
• Unitarian:

"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"
"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "
"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;"
"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. 7,8

• Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede
• Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."
• Zoroastrianism:
  
  • "That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
  • "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29
  
  

Some philosophers' statements are:

• Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
• Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."
• Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
• Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
• Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

[Tj3]

That is why the only way to really answer this is to show written historic proof that a tribe before Moses time followed something that could be considered 'the golden rule. Otherwise this is going no where.

Yep. Even then that would not prove that it was not Biblical. When we are looking at things back that far, we have only minimal historic records, and we cannot say exactly when Moses received it either. Wew just know that it was earlier. As far as we know at the moment, Moses is the oldest recorded source.

[Tj3]

So all those other religions that have a similar moral have all been inspired by your god?

I find it interesting how people like to twist what is said. I never said or even implied that the religions were inspired by God. But Biblical quotes or events recorded in the Bible no doubt were heard by others (such as the records of the global flood that we find in other sources), and passed along, though sometimes the wording or details may vary or get corrupted.

[Alty]

Wow NK, that's some list. :)

I think that we have to agree that every religion has some form of the Golden rule.

From what I've seen here, I have to say that I don't think that it originated with Moses. It makes sense that these words have been uttered in some form or another since the beginning of time, because really, they are words to live by.

[Tj3]

From what I've seen here, I have to say that I don't think that it originated with Moses.

No one has been able to validate a source older than the Biblical source. Note also that even if all the sources in that list are correct, not all are the same as the Golden rule.