[tata098]

Recently we realized that the main house shut off valve does not turn the water off in the house completely. So the plumber and the city tried to find the outside curb shut off box but both could not find it. It is possible that it might be in the street somewhere because that happened to my neighbor many years ago. So the plumber wants to freeze the incoming water line and then replace the inside valve. I have heard of doing this before. Just wondering if this is a good idea and works well. I don't think I have many other choices.

[massplumber2008]

Hi Tata...

What does the city think of this? If they cannot find a curb stop then shouldn't they be installing one for you?

Here, I just don't see why you should pay to have the line frozen when they should be taking responsibility for installation of the curb stop, you know?

Talk to the manager over at the water department, in person, and see what they can do for you... seems to me this is on them... ;)

Back to you...

Mark

[tata098]

Thanks mark, I was lucky if the city water dept even came out to look for it in the first place. They say that they did with the plumber but the plumber does not recall them coming with him to my house for that. Anyway, when my neighbor had his sewer and water line replaced many years ago, it was discovered that his curb shut off was in the paved part of the street. So he was responsible for having it moved. I know stupid. I just need to know if the freezing the line idea is a good one.

[joypulv]

Your city is being lazy and cheap and I don't believe for one minute that you have to pay to move a valve belonging to the city just because someone tells you to, or freeze a line just because they can't find your shut off. And it sounds like they lie too, telling you they looked and your plumber has no recollection? Someone in that town needs to be fired.

[massplumber2008]

Hi Tata...

First, I am obviously in agreement with Joypulv and will repeat that you need to talk to the manager at the water department... not the workers, OK? This being your money, I have to recommend that you take some time and see if this can be resolved by them... ;)

Second, if the water won't shut off completely, but the flow is reasonably manageable when shut down then you may want to consider installing a COMPRESSION or SHARKBITE type of shutoff valve at the main before freezing the line as these shutoffs are simple to install, require no soldering, and are proven to be more than reliable. I would recommend a good hanger to be installed to keep the shutoff and copper tubing rigid.

Otherwise, if that doesn't float your boat and the city won't step up here, and the plumber wants to freeze the pipe I see no reason not to proceed as this is also a well proven technique. It is usually reserved for larger, more complicated jobs, but it is an option here, too.

Good luck!

Mark

[mygirlsdad77]

Hi guys. Just thought I would share my experience here. In my area, curb stops are the responsibility of the homeowner. The city will shut them off and turn them on, but if they are seized, leaking, or broken, it is the homeowners responsibitly to pay for repairs/ replacement. When we have this problem in winter when we can't dig (our curb stop are all 7' or deeper here) and the main in the house won't shut off, we actuall call the city, and they will come freeze the line for us so we can change out the shut off in the house. We have never had a problem with this. Works great as long as all fixtures in the home shut off completely so there is absolutely no water running while your trying to freeze it. Around here, the city just charges for the liquid nitrogen, and nothing more. You will have a plumbers bill though (of course).

Now, that being said, things are done extremely different from area to area, so if they say freezing is the best option for you, then I would go for it. Good luck and please let us know how things work out.

[lilpoppa]

I agree with everyone else the city should take responsibility for the curb stop being buried, or lost. Although mygirlsdad77 is right that in many areas the curb stop is your responsibility if it seizes leaks or breaks, but it is not your responsibility to locate it espically if the street departmen paved over it. Several years ago they repaved my street and my curb stop is about two feet out in the street, I was a bit concerned when they just paved over the lid of my shutoff. I went down the street and talked to the paving crew supervisor and asked him about it, and he said that they placed steel locating pins over all the curb stops on the street, my point here is that it is not your fault responsibility or problem if your curb stop has been paved over. Like massplumber said go talk to the manager of the water department in person. If that doesn't get you anywhere, I suggest you have a chat with your local alderman and see if that gets you anywhere.

[tata098]

Thanks guys for all your answers. I am learning from many people that freezing the line is the way to go. The plumber said that once the pipe is frozen all he has to do is unscrew it and replace the valve, he is planning on putting in a ball joint valve as well. The only problem is that the part where the valve is located is painted. Wonder if the plumber realizes that.

[mygirlsdad77]

Hi again tata. Paint won't be an issue. The will probably just scrape the paint off so the freeze fitting fits good on the pipe, and the thread won't be painted inside the valve, so they just spin it off, re-pipe dope, or teflon the threads and spin a new one on like they said. A ball valve is the only way to go here. Old valve was most likely a gate valve.

I would definatley do as suggested above, and look further into locating the curb stop, as even in my area, it IS the citys responsibility to locate the curb stop (wierd how that works huh?) Many times if we can't locate the curb(as plumbers) we call the city and they will use a locater to trace the line, and a different locater to locate curb box top. We will usually be around to help dig by hand etc. to find the actuall top (just helps to work together, everyone wins that way.) Like I said, sometimes, in winter, or around this time of year when there is a good foot of frozen ice and snow, it can be tricky to even accurately locate the curb top, so we will freeze. But as soon as the weather straightens out, we always get back to resolve the curb stop issue, usually, its just a matter of finding it and raising it so this doesn't happen again. Now if the curb got covered in the street, I can't really comment on that, as I haven't run across it yet around here. I have seen them get covered in the sidewalk, but sidewalks around here are also the homeowners resposabitliy, so that usually falls back on the homeowner, or the contractor they hired to pour the walk. City streets, I would really hope the city would take some action to help you out on this. Crossing my fingures for you. Good luck and take care. Oh, and please do let us know how things work out regarding the curb stop , and the freezing process.

[tata098]

Well for right now, I will go with the line freezing. Its so hard dealing with the city water department. The plumber came out with something to help locate the box. Found the gas one, but could not find the water one. The water dept claims that they came and could not find it. Its really hard to say for sure who's responsibility it is to actually find the curb box. All the bureaucratic nonsense would probably take a long time and in the mean time, I have no way of shutting off my water in the house. I'm very stressed about it. I would rather have found the curb box trust me. I'm not crazy about freezing a water line. I'm worried about the grounding line attached to it, the possibility of my whole water line freezing or the whole process messing up my water line in the house. UGH. But everyone seems to be assuring me that it will be fine. I truly hope so. A bust in my water line will mean big bucks for me.

[mygirlsdad77]

Hi, I understand your concerns. But take my word for it, if done correctly, there really is no harm in freezing the incoming line( as its usually type k, it won't bust from freezing). No harm will be done to your ground (they may or may not remove the ground before freezing, only reason to remove it would be for more room). And the whole line will not freeze, just a small portion of it, just long enough to swap out that valve. It may take a little time for it to thaw, but we are talking minutes here, not hours, you can even use a hairdryer to speed up the process, but usually there isn't that big of a hurry. All I can say is , don't stress, everything really should be fine. There are people who do this sort of thing all the time, with great results. No harm will be done to your water line. This isn't some crazy idea somebody came up with, its actually proven. Like I said, don't lose any sleep over it, it really should all work out okay. Let us know okay?


Just a side not. Back in the day, they actually used to freeze lines with refigerants, by just wrapping the pipe with plastic and pouring in liquid refrigerant. That of course is illegal now, as refrigerants are not to be vented to the atmosphere. Now they actually have a machine that sprays liquid nitrogen, (or Im sure there are other machines as well) to freeze the line in a ozone friendly way. Really a win win process in emergencies.

Freezing here really sounds like your best option. I have actually changed these things out on the fly (in unfinished basements, or crawl spaces where a little water wouldn't hurt anything. But freezing is a mess free way of doing it right.

[tata098]

Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement. That's what I'm hoping for, that its done correctly. They are going to pick up the dry ice tomorrow and coming in the morning to do it. UGH, I'm so anxious about it. I'm praying they will have the best guy on it.

[tata098]

OH and they are freezing it on the inside of the house.

[tata098]

Hi everyone, thanks for all your advice. The plumber came and the work went well. I'm so relieved. The work was beautifully done.

[mygirlsdad77]

Glad it all went according to plan. Thanks for the update.