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kevinkoss · Dec 31, 2010, 05:58 PM

I have a basement and the main water line coming from street to house basement is blue polybutylene and it does not show any grounding rod. Although the clamp is connected to copper supply line but the main line is in plastic. Im having a plumber to replace the polybutylene line. So can I hammer drill through basement floor and put a 8' ground rod and clamp to new copper main line?

Thanks
Kevin

jcaron2 · Dec 31, 2010, 08:05 PM

How far is this main line from your electrical service entrance? I'm sure your solution would work fine, but it may be much easier to just run a ground line from your electrical panel. No drilling through concrete or potentially penetrating a vapor barrier would be required. Plus, in most places the soil below your basement is going to be very hard, very dry, and possibly even solid rock. Pounding a ground rod down into that will not be easy.

More to the point, are you sure you have to ground the line? I'm an electrical engineer, but I'm no expert in electrical or plumbing code. I do know it's very common for electricians to use metal plumbing in lieu of or in addition to grounding rods to ground the electrical system, but I wasn't aware that the plumbing HAD to be grounded.

tkrussell · Jan 1, 2011, 04:47 AM

At least one ground rod must ground the neutral and equipment ground in the panel, assuming the panel has the Main Breaker in it, using min #6 copper wire.

Check local codes, at least two rods may be needed.

Leave the ground connection from the panel to the copper water pipe. This is not a ground for the system, this is intended to bond the water system to the electrical system ground.

Yes, metal plumbing systems do need to be bonded.

Yes, you may drive through the concrete floor with your ground rod(s). But, all 8 feet of the must be in contact with earth, including the clamp for the ground wire. May not be practical.

If the Main Breaker is not in this panel, let us know, grounding different, does not connect to the panelboard. This may be why you do not see a ground rod connected to the panelboard, and only the bonding of the water system.

If the Main Breaker is outside or on a pole. There should be at least one ground rod connected to the neutral and equipment ground at the box containing the Main Breaker.

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 08:48 AM

"How far is this main line from your electrical service entrance?" I just bought this house and I'm waiting until escrow is done. This problem was found by the home inspector. See photos

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 08:50 AM

The main supply line is above the service panel about 1 foot away with clamp on water line.

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 08:52 AM

[IMG]/house/supply1.jpg[/IMG]/house/supply2.jpg

tkrussell · Jan 1, 2011, 08:59 AM

Photos did not come out.

Keep in mind, connecting to the metal water line is not grounding the system, only bonding the metal water system. At least one ground rod is still needed, so it does not matter how close the water line is to the panel.

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 09:31 AM

See 2 photos from youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxrhf6VSFVo

jcaron2 · Jan 1, 2011, 09:36 AM

Good, so it sounds like you can just run a short copper ground wire from the ground bus in the service panel to the copper pipe. That assumes, of course, that the panel itself is grounded with ground rods as tkrussell said.

Tkrussel, I assume code requires that the copper plumbing be bonded so that it will trip a breaker (rather than electrifying all the plumbing in the house) in the even that a wire accidentally shorted to a pipe somewhere? That would certainly make sense.

If so, I assume that also means that you need to make sure that the electrical connection is maintained to the hot water side of the plumbing as well?

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 09:43 AM

See YouTube video just 2 photos in it. I switch from private to public so you should be able to watch video. Just give a few minutes for YouTube to reset privacy settings.

jcaron2 · Jan 1, 2011, 10:37 AM

So from the video it looks like there's already a #6 wire from the plumbing to the electrical panel. If so, what did your inspector say was missing? Is the entire electrical panel ungrounded! If so, that's a big issue in and of itself, and the fact that the plumbing is therefore not bonded is secondary. Otherwise, maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like the requirement is fulfilled.

jcaron2 · Jan 1, 2011, 10:39 AM

Or maybe it's just a #6 clamp with no wire actually connected. If so, it's a really easy fix! :-)

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 10:55 AM

Grounding 13. SERVICE / REPAIR: Grounding is in question. Although clamp is connected to copper supply line that line is connected to a "plastic" service line. Additionally there is no bonding wire at the water heater. Recommend an electrician.

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 10:56 AM

Also, inspector said that he could not find a grounding rod.

jcaron2 · Jan 1, 2011, 12:23 PM

So the way I read that, it sounds like the inspector couldn't find any ground rod for the electrical system, but did find a connection to the plumbing. However, that doesn't suffice to ground the system because the main supply line is plastic. (Plus, I think tkrussel said that by code there MUST be at least one ground rod, if not two).

Either way, it should be a relatively straightforward fix. In the worse case, you'll just need to drive a couple of ground rods outside your basement wall. Tkrussel can tell you exactly what code is, but I'm pretty sure you're supposed to put in two 8' rods spaced 6' apart, with the closer one no further than 6' from the electrical panel. Then it's just a matter of running a #6 copper wire from clamps on both ground rods, through the wall, and into the panel. If that's the main panel for the house, when you open it up (by unscrewing the cover on the front) you'll most likely see buses on both sides with a mixture of green or bare (ground) and white (neutral) wires screwed into them. You just need to run your copper ground wire into the box and screw in into either of those buses. If this is a sub-panel, then the grounds and neutrals should be separate, so you should see white wires on one side and bare wires on the other. Obviously just screw the ground wire into the bus with the other bare wires.

In the more likely scenario, if you open up the panel, you should be able to see a large bare copper ground wire exiting out through the back of the box or through some conduit all by itself (without any accompanying black, white, or red wires). If you can follow it (probably directly out through the basement wall), you'll hopefully find that it leads to a ground rod or two just on the other side of the wall. You may have to dig down a little to find them. A lot of times the electrical meter is just opposite the panel on the outside wall. If the service is fed from underground, you'll often find the ground wire running down the outside wall tucked in behind the conduit. However, presumably if it was that obvious your inspector would have found it.

As far as the hot water heater goes, I think you're supposed to put a clamp on the two copper lines entering/exiting and run a #6 wire between them just to make sure that there's an electrical connection to the hot water side too.

If you're comfortable opening the electrical panel, you can look to see if there's a large bare copper ground wire exiting through the back of the box (or perhaps through the same conduit that the service entrance wire comes through, if that's applicable). If so, chances are there's a ground rod somewhere nearby on the opposite side of the basement wall. It's also possible that

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 12:24 PM

Thanks Im going to wait until escrow is done and then I check with electrian. Thank you. I get back later what was found and maybe a solution. 〶

kevinkoss · Jan 1, 2011, 12:27 PM

Ok I wait until escrow done and I will remove panel and see if ground is there. Thanks!

jcaron2 · Jan 1, 2011, 12:30 PM

Woops... that last "paragraph" was supposed to get deleted. It's really annoying that you can no longer edit your posts on this site.

jcaron2 · Jan 1, 2011, 12:31 PM

Good luck!

tkrussell · Jan 1, 2011, 12:53 PM

Keep in mind, we still do not know where the Main Breaker is. As long as it is located in the panel, then the grounding electrode conductor from the ground rod can ground the neutral and equipment ground at that panel.

Ground rods can be father than 6 foot away from the panel there is no requirement for that, when more than one rod is driven, they must be at least six feet away from each other, can be more, but no less than six feet apart.