[Wondergirl]

Well, actually, as Heiko Oberman has shown, Luther (and other German members of his very small order) disliked Italians and other "swarthy" Mediterraneans. And this well before his later years, when even his wife told him to tone down the rhetoric. There's a ton of documentary evidence that he didn't like these people coming into Germany and telling good Germans what to do. A lot of the work done on this has been done by Lutheran historians.

Which says what?

[Akoue]

Which says what?

How about a different thread? That's right, it says "How about a different thread?"

[Wondergirl]

How about a different thread? That's right, it says "How about a different thread?"

In other words, let's give this thread back to cozyk?

[Akoue]

In other words, let's give this thread back to cozyk?

This is what I'm thinking. She's been really patient with us, and we should stop abusing that patience.

And I'm sorry for being short with you earlier. There were a couple of times when I really couldn't see where you were coming from enough to sort out what you were trying to say. So let's just agree to disagree for now and quiver our arrows.

I guess I having something new to take to confession. (Yes, wondergirl, that was just for you!)

Ps: I'm pathologically incapable of using emoticons, but I think you can guess which one would have accompanied the parantheses.

[JoeT777]

Why would you say that, Joe? Wondergirl is simply questioning the doctrine. As she wrote, she was brought up without that being part of her religious upbringing. Do you expect her to jump on the Catholic bandwagon because you and others believe it?

When you offer as a proof (or support) that Mary was "full of grace" and therefore sinless, this strikes me as stretching a phrase to a place it was never intended to go. Whether Mary was or wasn't this or that strikes me as minutiae. The story of Mary is a lovely one and a big part of Christian culture but not worth getting insulting about.

My only objection to Protestants on this Mary issue is when some misrepresent Catholic belief (that she is worshipped as if she were God). After all Catholics ought to know what they believe.

Point well made and I’ll try to “tone” it down. However, you may be mistaking my straightforward comments as being combative. I’ve found that beating around bushes only seems to stir-up dust.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

This is what I'm thinking. She's been really patient with us, and we should stop abusing that patience.

And I'm sorry for being short with you earlier. There were a couple of times when I really couldn't see where you were coming from enough to sort out what you were trying to say. So let's just agree to disagree for now and quiver our arrows.

I guess I having something new to take to confession. (Yes, wondergirl, that was just for you!)

Ps: I'm pathologically incapable of using emoticons, but I think you can guess which one would have accompanied the parantheses.

Maybe we can somehow return this thread to its original subject? And I would be more than happy to post on a thread about Luther and the Reformation and his intentions and beliefs and very interesting supper guests. (I'll bring the dessert). I hope Athos and Joe and arcura et al. will join us.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
You saidn"I think all of us (arcura, akoue, Athos, Joe, De Maria) agree on that. God loves us unconditionally, and, in turn, our response is to not only love God in return but also love others unconditionally"
I fully adree with you on that..
I think all of the Christians here also will do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

Joe,
Yes, as you said, "I've found that beating around bushes only seems to stir-up dust".
I think it also disturbs the bush.
LOL
Fred
.

[arcura]

Akoue
Yes, since there are disagreements here let's agree to disagree but keep the discussion going.
I for one am learning as it goes on.
Fred

[DoulaLC]

What continuing studies are you referring to?

Any number of universities around the world have and are studying the idea. The University of Florida for example has a program for it. Many medical schools are now including the idea of prayer and healing as part of their training for residents. Enough doctors have seen results that should not have happened and that they are hard pressed to explain scientifically. There are possible answers, but they can be neither proved nor disproved either.

The idea that the results are not universal, as in everyone getting healed when they pray or are prayed for, is what holds up many who don't believe there is any connection. Could it just be due to the person's own physiological response... sure. Might there be more to it... that is what has many interested enough to keep looking at the prospect.

Those who do believe understand that just because an event did not have the results they had hoped for, or prayed for, does not mean it didn't turn out how it was supposed to. This is partly where the idea of God's plan comes about.

[Athos]

Any number of universities around the world have and are studying the idea. The University of Florida for example has a program for it.

The idea that the results are not universal, as in everyone getting healed when they pray or are prayed for, is what holds up many who don't believe there is any connection.


Could it just be due to the person's own physiological response.....sure.

The University of Florida study has nothing to do with the issue at hand. That study studied the effect of prayer on stress management for the elderly. No one denies that personal prayer for ones self can be efficacious.

The results ARE universal. Every scientifically-controlled study has shown no effect. No exceptions.

"The person's own physiological response". You're missing the point. The question is about whether prayer works for others, not the person doing the praying. "Prayer at a distance" so to speak.

[arcura]

DoulaLC,
Thanks for that information.
God can and has said no to many prayers.
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Athos,
Thanks for that affirmation.
Our God who heals definitely works in mysterious ways!
WG

[DoulaLC]

The University of Florida study has nothing to do with the issue at hand. That study studied the effect of prayer on stress management for the elderly. No one denies that personal prayer for ones self can be efficacious.

The results ARE universal. Every scientifically-controlled study has shown no effect. No exceptions.

"The person's own physiological response". You're missing the point. The question is about whether prayer works for others, not the person doing the praying. "Prayer at a distance" so to speak.

Check out some recent journals and sited works. There have been recent studies and ones that are still being done.
Yes, I agree, some studies have not found any connection... there is no doubt about that as those are well documented and published.

My statement was not that these studies do not exist, but simply that there has been more recent research since the '90's and that research continues.

[arcura]

DoulaLC,
Right you are.
Fred

[Akoue]

Check out some recent journals and sited works. There have been recent studies and ones that are still being done.
Yes, I agree, some studies have not found any connection....there is no doubt about that as those are well documented and published.

My statement was not that these studies do not exist, but simply that there has been more recent research since the '90's and that research continues.

If I'm not mistaken, both Duke and Georgetown medical schools have recently done studies on "remote prayer".

[arcura]

Akoue.
I'll see what I can find on that.
I hope others do.
Fred

[Athos]

Check out some recent journals and sited works. There have been recent studies and ones that are still being done.
Yes, I agree, some studies have not found any connection.

You didn't cite any works. How can I check them out? Please state what these recent studies are.

To your last sentence: NO study has found ANY connection!

[Akoue]

I don't know the journal, but this study claims to show some benefit from intercessory prayer.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/323/7327/1450

[Akoue]

The Duke study (1998) claims to have shown:

However, those receiving alternative therapies "had lower absolute complication rates and a lower absolute incidence of post-procedural ischemia during hospitalization." Of the four alternative therapies, intercessory prayer seemed to provide the greatest therapeutic benefits.