[sndbay]

Err yes indeed we ALL are.

God does not want us to be ignorant. And shows us the example.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The Word of God comes as encouragement or like it says for our admonition
Ownership is making the choice. Like putting on a pair of shoes to walk through life. God gives everyone that choice..


Choice.. Ownership


1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

[Alty]

[QUOTE]The word ignorant is found 17 times in the Word of God[/QUOTE]

Word of God? The bible is the word of man, God never wrote a book. The bible is mans word, stories that the apostles claim happened, not the actual word of God. Why do you think the bible contradicts itself endlessly, it's because it was written by different men, years after the events occurred (if they occurred).

If you insist on quoting scripture, quoting the bible, if you wish to have a religious discussion with like minded people, then perhaps you should post in the Christian forum, there you will be able to discuss your beliefs with others that believe the same thing.

Before you ask, yes, I believe in God, but I believe in a tolerant, kind, caring, forgiving God, is he the same God you believe in, I'm still trying to figure that out, how can he be if our beliefs are so different? I do not believe in a man written book, men are fallible, not perfect, therefore you cannot take the bible at face value, that's my opinion.

Now, to address your question, are we foolish and ignorant? Yes, many are, in fact, in one time or another we all show foolishness and ignorance, these are human traits, so of course, as humans we do possess these traits.

If you are basing your question solely on bible scripture, then I don't know how to answer your question, not because I haven't read the bible, but because I don't believe the bible is fact.

Can you pose your questions, state your claim in a way that we can all understand and accept?

[sndbay]

If you insist on quoting scripture, quoting the bible, if you wish to have a religious discussion with like minded people, then perhaps you should post in the Christian forum, there you will be able to discuss your beliefs with others that believe the same thing.

Let me set the record straight, I did post this in the Christian forum. It appears in two ways #1 someone under the management of this web site felt it was better discussed under religion, #2 it appeared here under religious discussion without refer to me.[/

Before you ask, yes, I believe in God, but I believe in a tolerant, kind, caring, forgiving God, is he the same God you believe in, I'm still trying to figure that out, how can he be if our beliefs are so different?

People all over the world have different gods. So I would acknowledge my God as the flawless, loving, forgiving, all powerful God of rightousness. My God gave of himself out of love and mercy by giving His Own Begotten Son, Christ. My God has the power and strength to create everything on earth including the bible. My God wrote the bible throught His Spirit known as The Holy Spirit . All done yesterday, today and tomorrow in that same presence as the Holy Spirit here on earth with us.[/

I do not believe in a man written book, men are fallible, not perfect, therefore you cannot take the bible at face value, that's my opinion.

Man is falliable, but God is NOT. God is perfect without blemish. God wrote His letter the bible to: guide us, protect us, and to show His love.

Word of God? The bible is the word of man, God never wrote a book. The bible is mans word, stories that the apostles claim happened, not the actual word of God. Why do you think the bible contradicts itself endlessly, it's because it was written by different men, years after the events occurred (if they occurred).

I don't believe the bible contrasts itself. But you are correct to say man, who have tried to teach this letter the bible, can cause their actions of natural blemish to occur. That is why it's important for all to read, themselves, the letter that is written. God is a revealing strength, and power who will allow His children to understand. Those that draw near to God, He will draw near to them in pure heartedness of love. Jesus told us His sheep hear His voice and follow.

Now, to address your question, are we foolish and ignorant? Yes, many are, in fact, in one time or another we all show foolishness and ignorance, these are human traits, so of course, as humans we do possess these traits.

Again you are correct. That is the reason I offered the scripture God sent in refer:
1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Everything God wrote is of example for us and to us. God's love and protection to guide you, and help you in life's sorrows and blessings. To understand them, God has told us of obedience in trusting Him. And in the fear of loosing His love when you deny Him. God tells us of evil on this earth, and you can see satan at work doing what he has done from the beginning in deserving whomever will follow in his darkness.

If you are basing your question solely on bible scripture, then I don't know how to answer your question, not because I haven't read the bible, but because I don't believe the bible is fact.

My God wrote the bible through strength and power of the HOLY SPIRIT. Choice to deny this is owned by that one who chooses to deny the Holy Spirit. And I will add, denying the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin... I do not ask anyone to follow man, but it is for us to believe in God, and all His creation (that would includes the bible).

Can you pose your questions, state your claim in a way that we can all understand and accept

I have tried to do so for those who will hear and hold God's love in faith, in light, and in grace. God reveals to those who call upon Him. That is why I ask, what pattern in life do you follow each day? "Our "choice, "Our" foolish ignorance is ownership only to that choice should anyone not believe.

[sndbay]

With all respect : that is what you BELIEVE.


With all respect : that is what you BELIEVE.

I have no problem what-so-ever with what you believe. The question is if what you believe is reality.
But many mistakes and contradictions in the bible point either into the direction of a completely unguided man-made book, or a non-perfect guiding god entity. Why would anyone take whatever you believe as reality?

:rolleyes:

·

A child of God... They hear His voice and follow God..

There are however sons of the devil.. and the murderer from the beginning was Cain.John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

Reality... a shoe that can fit.. choice... ownership...

[Alty]

My God wrote the bible through strength and power of the HOLY SPIRIT. Choice to deny this is owned by that one who chooses to deny the Holy Spirit. And I will add, denying the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin... I do not ask anyone to follow man, but it is for us to believe in God, and all His creation (that would includes the bible).

Your God? Well, perhaps he is yours and yours alone, the God I believe in would never punish someone for having doubts.

You believe that the bible was written by the Holy spirit. What about the apostles, the men that actually wrote the bible?

Not believing in the Holy spirit is an unforgivable sin? The God I believe in forgives all sins, but you say this one is unforgivable. Also you state that man must believe in the Bible. Why? I've studied the bible, I can quote scripture left right and centre, that's why I choose not to follow what is written in it. I mean no disrespect, if you choose to follow the bible's teachings that's fine, your choice, but do not tell me that I must.

Is the fact that I do not believe in the bible and Church threatening to you? If so, why? Do you really think that reading a book and going to Church will earn you favor with God?

The more I hear the happier I am with my faith, the more it confims to me that I am doing the right thing for me.

told us His sheep hear His voice and follow.

Sorry, never been a great sheep, I usually lead, I'm not much for following.

I respect your right to believe but I do not respect you claiming that your way is the only way, your rules or punishment.

Good luck.

[sndbay]

Posted in #33 Before you ask, yes, I believe in God, but I believe in a tolerant, kind, caring, forgiving God, is he the same God you believe in, I'm still trying to figure that out, how can he be if our beliefs are so different?

Logically this question suggests that you were comparing the God you believe in and the God I believe in?

Your God? Well, perhaps he is yours and yours alone, the God I believe in would never punish someone for having doubts.

Reasoning this statement out, I figure that I could have done the same to your original question.. But I did not try to discredit your choice in anything that you said or what your belief is.. Secondly God is a very understanding God, and without blemish. Now I ask you, how would your parents feel if you questioned their rules and guidence when they were raising you? Were they there and understanding, yet giving into every wrong turn you made. Or did they teach you right from wrong with rules, and guidence? If God were to send someone to help you with those doubts, would you hear them?

You believe that the bible was written by the Holy spirit. What about the apostles, the men that actually wrote the bible?

Yes I do believe the bible was written by the Holy Spirit using the disciples, and apostles as willing men to follow. Their love was great and faithful to God. As I also believe God did all miracles. Not one miracle was done by man himself. God is the creater of all. This would include God's chosen one the Virgin Mary. God found favor in Mary to work His blessing of grace through her to bring Christ, for us. And Mary felt joy and love to serve God.

Not believing in the Holy spirit is an unforgivable sin? The God I believe in forgives all sins, but you say this one is unforgivable.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Also you state that man must believe in the Bible. Why? I've studied the bible, I can quote scripture left right and centre, that's why I choose not to follow what is written in it. I mean no disrespect, if you choose to follow the bible's teachings that's fine, your choice, but do not tell me that I must.

This is true, it is my choice. And you have the right to your own choice.

Is the fact that I do not believe in the bible and Church threatening to you? If so, why?

No because my choice goes along with my responsibility to my own life, and I will be held accountable for that choice in life. Your choice is your path and responsibility in life.

Do you really think that reading a book and going to Church will earn you favor with God?

I feel you have more to gain by reading the bible yourself, and that God would love to have all His children enjoy what He has to tell them. As for going to church, I acknowledge two or more gathered together speaking of His name, God is with them by the Holy Spirit presence.

Point of fact: I need not give reason for my own choice in church. To find a church that will claim nothing more then God's Word as Truth is difficult. Most try to improve upon God's Word by offering their own mortal blemished errors in traditions and objects that make them think they are closer to God.

I respect your right to believe but I do not respect you claiming that your way is the only way, your rules or punishment.

This is not necessary .. I did not claim that you must follow me.. I only said God's children follow Christ because they hear His voice.

[Alty]

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Sorry, but I don't believe that, it's a bible passage, I think I've made it quite clear that I do not put faith in the bible.

Secondly God is a very understanding God, and without blemish. Now I ask you, how would your parents feel if you questioned their rules and guidance when they were raising you? Were they there and understanding, yet giving into every wrong turn you made. Or did they teach you right from wrong with rules, and guidance? If God were to send someone to help you with those doubts, would you hear them?

Yes my parents taught me right from wrong, they also let me make mistakes and learn from them. They taught me to think for myself, to question things and find my way in this world. They did have rules, which I respected, never once did the threaten hell if I didn't obey. If I made mistakes I was forgiven, always, not matter what I did.

I feel you have more to gain by reading the bible yourself, and that God would love to have all His children enjoy what He has to tell them. As for going to church, I acknowledge two or more gathered together speaking of His name, God is with them by the Holy Spirit presence.

I have never gained anything from reading the bible except fear of hell and damnation. I have read the bible, and if believing in the bible is the only way to God, then I guess I'm doomed. The second part of your quote, can you rephrase it, to my understanding of what you wrote you believe that the presence of the Holy spirit is with Priests, is that correct?

I only said God's children follow Christ because they hear His voice

And his voice is in the bible? Well, it seems that once again I'm doomed.

Logically this question suggests that you were comparing the God you believe in and the God I believe in?

Not so much comparing, but trying to understand how our beliefs can be so different if we both believe in God. Maybe I do believe in something different than you, and if so, what does that mean? Does it mean that you are following the wrong path, or that I am, and how does anyone know for sure which path is right? I'm questioning, trying to find an answer, an answer that I know, for me, doesn't lie in the bible or church. So, where to go from here? I honestly don't know.

I am happy with my beliefs, I am comfortable knowing in my heart that I do not have to conform in order to believe in God. That's what I believe.

Why did I come to your thread? I was interested in what you had to say, because I don't agree. I do agree that it's your life and your choice to believe what you want. Since this is in religious discussions this thread is open to discussion by all, and I came here to state what I believe. I didn't mean to offend you, if I have then I apologize.

Good Luck.

[sndbay]

Sorry, but I don't believe that, it's a bible passage, I think I've made it quite clear that I do not put faith in the bible.

I am not pointing a finger, nor do I find this form of thinking that odd, because many people feel the same that you do. On the other hand, I don't find anything impossible with God, and trust by all that is written God knows better then I, and more then I.

Yes my parents taught me right from wrong, they also let me make mistakes and learn from them. They taught me to think for myself, to question things and find my way in this world. They did have rules, which I respected, never once did the threaten hell if I didn't obey. If I made mistakes I was forgiven, always, not matter what I did.

What I view in this statement is what you did.. You respected your parents! And they had rules! They taught you right from wrong! And they taught you to think for yourself! Mistake were forgiven! I think you had great parents, and I feel you were a loving child.. Did you make mistakes..Yes, yet that is how we learn ... by mistakes... God talks about all of this, and His forgiveness, mercy, and love. .. (no matter what I did)? This is the one statement that throws aside respect.. no matter what I did? Have you ever don't anything really bad? The reason I say this is because we do have really bad in some people. When you see the world and what takes place day in and day out. Doesn't some of it make sense to needing enforcement for those who don't respect, and don't love others?

I have never gained anything from reading the bible except fear of hell and damnation. I have read the bible, and if believing in the bible is the only way to God, then I guess I'm doomed.

I feel the bible examples how God has tried to clean up the mess men have made. And some of these are harmful to others. I also feel the bible shows how God is trying to protect us from satan. And how satan each day is the cause of evil that is here on earth. God wants us protected from the evil, yet to understand He is presence, and He will help us in our fight against satan when doing anything harmful to us or throught us.

The second part of your quote, can you rephrase it, to my understanding of what you wrote you believe that the presence of the Holy spirit is with Priests, is that correct?

As for going to church, I acknowledge two or more gathered together speaking of His name, God is with them by the Holy Spirit presence....The presence of the Holy Spirit is with all that want Him. It's God! Not just priests, but any that gather together in His Name will and does call upon God's presence. We have the open veil, through Christ, to walk through and speak to God ourselves. God request that we do that, and it pleases Him to have you speak to Him of His promises. (Book of Isaish) I know you don't look to scripture.. but I myself would rather look to scripture then to men that read one verse or two and impress traditions.

And his voice is in the bible? Well, it seems that once again I'm doomed.

God is in your heart. And your heart, mind, and soul can hear if you want to hear. Please don't get me wrong in thinking I worship a book or scriptures. I don't! The work that was done to create the bible was done as loving sevants to God in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Not so much comparing, but trying to understand how our beliefs can be so different if we both believe in God. Maybe I do believe in something different than you, and if so, what does that mean? Does it mean that you are following the wrong path, or that I am, and how does anyone know for sure which path is right? I'm questioning, trying to find an answer, an answer that I know, for me, doesn't lie in the bible or church. So, where to go from here? I honestly don't know.

There is difference belief, we view that around the world. The focus of my belief is Christ because Christ is who God Our Father sent to us. Apart of God as the begotten Son of God. How else could God put Himself here on earth to save us, other then by creating a son from Himself to do it. The Creater of all.. You do admit to needing God right? Is the God you love, include Christ, and His Spirit? Our Father will reveal all to whoever ask.. How do we know? By faith, and not by objects and metals, and statues. Just by faith that lies within your heart. I think you have that faith... I feel somewhere alone the path of your life something or someone has thrown a question in, and perhaps you just need to stop the question. Don't allow satan' attemping his work.

Why did I come to your thread? I was interested in what you had to say, because I don't agree. I do agree that it's your life and your choice to believe what you want. Since this is in religious discussions this thread is open to discussion by all, and I came here to state what I believe. I didn't mean to offend you, if I have then I apologize.

Again your choice.. And thank you, I do note the pureness of heart in your discussion. I hope you find what you need.

[Credendovidis]

God talks about all of this, and His forgiveness, mercy, and love...

But if you don't follow his rules, you go to hell .... And as George Carlin continued such lines : "But he loves you"!

I feel the bible examples how God has tried to clean up the mess men have made.

How can men have made such mess, if God made them in his (perfect) image?
And who created good AND bad? Why would a perfect being create bad? And than blame men to have bad tendencies?

I also feel the bible shows how God is trying to protect us from satan.

Why would God not simply ban all bad, including satan? He is supra-natural, doesn't he?

:rolleyes:

·

[inthebox]

One of the things that we gained when we received new life in Jesus Christ is an awakened spiritual nature. We came to know what God considers sin and what is righteous behavior. We are still learning this more and more as we walk with Him.

But until we leave this world our flesh still clings to us. We have a spiritual nature from God and a fleshly nature as an effect of the rebellion of Adam and Eve against God. That means that we have a "battle" going on in our minds between these two.

Rom 7:14-25

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
NIV

In these few lines, Paul explains why some of David's Psalms(and other parts of Scripture) confess failure to be perfectly following God's will while others speak about us being the very "righteousness of God".

Our failure is all in the realm of Sanctification(our growth in holiness in this life) and not in the realm of Justification(our having been saved by the blood of Christ).
God has declared us righteous/justified but is still working on our new life with conviction by His Spirit. The Spirit teaches us daily things we haven't learned. Thus God uses the word "ignorant" - we still don't know it all. We are "disciples". We are learning.

And as we study His Word and aim at righteous living, we grow. That we make mistakes in our lives or even backslide into former sins we see that we still need to learn how to use the spiritual weapons which God has given to us to fight the good fight of faith.

In summary: We now have two natures. With our renewed spirit we serve God....with our clinging flesh we show our ignorance of how to follow the new life in Christ completely.

Just my opinion, a great reply / post. :D Thank you.

[sndbay]

How can men have made such mess, if God made them in his (perfect) image?
And who created good AND bad? Why would a perfect being create bad? And than blame men to have bad tendencies?

God created the cherub, Satan: he was created perfect in every way, until his own "PRIDE" of being perfect in beauty and wisdom was found in him. God created this perfect cherub out of love, and allowed him greatness.

Now tell me how many people do you know, that would give thanks for such a blessing? How many people wish life here on earth could be perfect? However:What if like in satan the perfect world of all people you are asking for were to also find they too, are greater then God ? What's left to be created, that might be thankful of such a blessing rather then what Satan brought in his Pride? Perhaps a Zombie of loving thankfulness is the answer. I can tell you it is not what God wants of His children.

God created Adam and Eve.. You know what followed.. Is is so hard to believe that satan, with all his pride, wants to deserve the world and attempt to gain out of his pride those who will follow him?

Why would God not simply ban all bad, including satan? He is supra-natural, doesn't he?

Think of what you are asking for God to do. Man is not perfect because of what perfection can bring. And God does not want His children as Zombies! Are you ask God to kill off the bad rather then what He did do for us all. God gave apart of Himself in sending His Son Jesus to save us. Aren't we all sinful, Aren't we all bad? Do you wish for God to kill us all?

Point of Fact:

Eze 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Encouragement:

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Why? ..
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

We need to help in this fight against satan by understanding God's love for His children. We should be aware of Truth.. We have been foretold.

And YES this is what I choose to believe with my heart, mind and soul. We have a loving God who does try to protect His children.

[sndbay]

How can men have made such mess, if God made them in his (perfect) image?

Perfect image?. No way, I don't know who told you that or where you read that?

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This to me means His [own] because all souls belong to God, so God made each of us as He wanted us to be.

[sndbay]

Post #43

Just my opinion, a great reply / post. :D Thank you.

I think your opinion came from someone else..
revdrgade does say in his or her summary:

redrgade QUOTE:We now have two natures. With our renewed spirit we serve God....with our clinging flesh we show our ignorance of how to follow the new life in Christ completely.

Our mistakes in life are indeed the growth toward knowledge, and having the forgiveness of Christ and in Christ because we are not perfect, is a blessing of grace from God.

redrgade opinion: The Spirit teaches us daily things we haven't learned. Thus God uses the word "ignorant" - we still don't know it all. We are "disciples". We are learning.

The Spirit is here to help and guide us. God offers His love and protection from harmful doers, and Christ opened the veil to life with God in His Kingdom. ( igornance is a choice ) in the path of life here on earth that God would rather we not take.

[Credendovidis]

God created the cherub, Satan: he was created perfect in every way, until his own "PRIDE" of being perfect in beauty and wisdom was found in him. God created this perfect cherub out of love, and allowed him greatness.

Sorry but that does not make any sense!!
If "Satan" was created perfect, how could he develop into a non-perfect being?
Pride not being part of a perfect being, where did that pride develop from?

God created Adam and Eve.. You know what followed.. Is is so hard to believe that satan, with all his pride, wants to deserve the world and attempt to gain out of his pride those who will follow him?

Why is it so difficult for you to explain why a perfect Satan and people created in God's image - so also perfect - all developed non-perfect treats? I repeat : where was that non-perfection coming from?

There is only one possible explanation : perfection does not exist. Not even for a deity - should such an entity exist.

:rolleyes:

·

[Credendovidis]

Perfect image ?.... No way, I don't know who told you that or where you read that?

If one is made in the image of a perfect being by that same perfect being, the resulting copy has to be perfect too...
A perfect being can not even create non-perfect items, as that would make it itself imperfect.

:rolleyes:

·

[sndbay]

If one is made in the image of a perfect being by that same perfect being, the resulting copy has to be perfect too ....
A perfect being can not even create non-perfect items, as that would make it itself imperfect.

:rolleyes:

·

You did not read post #45 .. This is speaking of people.. They are not made in the perfect image of God... No way..

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This means His [own] because all souls belong to God, so God made each of us as He wanted us to be.

[sndbay]

where did that pride develop from?

From perfection.. think about it.. That is the existence of satan today. The desire to be god? to take over? satan' wisdom as good as great?

I will repeat people were not made perfect..

There is only one possible explanation : perfection does not exist. Not even for a deity - should such an entity exist.

No I don't believe that..How is perfection defined? In beauty, In wisdom? That is what satan owns. I believe The Father in Heaven is all in perfection. In heart, In mercy, In judgement, In all.

[sndbay]

Incorrect : I did read that post.
I also saw that you added : "This to me means His [own] because all souls belong to God, so God made each of us as He wanted us to be."
That may mean that to you, but is it that way? It makes the entire claim debateble to say the least ...

"Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."



I offered the thought because of a different scripture which God said He created a son in His own likeness. And also because of the scripture Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
To me God created us and loves us, so He would create what pleasures Him. I don't intend to do more then plant a seed of truth. And of course that seed can fall where ever it may.. It's irrelevant to my belief, as is your's to mine

As I stated : anything created by a perfect being (perfect as in "having no faults or bad sides") as a copy in his image has to be perfect too.

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And let me repeat : Everything created by a perfect being (perfect as in "having no faults or bad sides") has to be perfect too. Humans and satans and anything else. A perfect being can not create bad things unless it is itself not perfect.

:rolleyes:

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Well maybe in a perfect world.. It's scripture being God' Word which has the final say, and as you can see the Word says differently.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

[inthebox]

CRED;


"Perfection" in this case means sinless or without sin.

What is sin? Breaking the law or lawlessness. The law in simplest form and most fundamentally expressed as the 10 Commandments.

God is perfect, that is without sin [, and so was Jesus Christ].

Adam and Eve, Satan / Lucifer were made perfect.

God gave them and I and us free will. We are allowed to make our own choices, we are not mere marionettes, are every move controlled directly by God.

Adam and Eve freely chose, to sin or rebel against God's instruction. Thus sin entered the world, and they and I and we are not perfect because we sin.

This is my belief. :)

[Alty]

Inthebox, can anyone say they've never broken one of the commandments? If we are supposed to follow Gods rules then we are supposed to obey the ten commandments right?

I've lied, not well, but I have.
I've said the name of the Lord in vain.

Churches make idols, that's against the ten commandments.

Can you perhaps see why I don't follow the bible and don't go to church?

One commandment I won't ever break, I will never covet my neighbors wife, just don't swing that way. ;)