Ask Me Help Desk - What biblical support is there for asking saints to pray for us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Non, nein, nope.

I don't think I could have made my position any more clear. Here it is in numbered propositions:

1. Scripture encourages intercessory prayer.
2. The saints enjoy the eternal life that was promised them and are alive with the Father.
3. The saints in heaven pray and worship.
4. We can ask the saints to offer intercessory prayers because they are alive with the Father.
5. There is nothing illicit about 4.

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself so I'll let you have the last word.

You claimed that the support fro your position comes from that passage that you took out of context (which is actually about whether the dead are resurrected) about God being "God of the Living" (despite the fact that Deut 18 condemns communication with those who are dead in the flesh).

So your position is inconsistent. If you are saying that it is okay to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh because they are actually alive. Then one of those point that I stated must be true of your beliefs. Otherwise you are presenting a contradictory position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

If you are saying that it is okay to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh because they are actually alive. Then one of those point that I stated must be true of your beliefs. Otherwise you are presenting a contradictory position.

Okay, please let's wrestle with that idea a bit. Friday my 95 y/o aunt-in-law died in her sleep. She, to all appearances, was a Christian. Let's go with the idea that she truly died in the Lord. Her body will be buried on Monday and will lie underground in a casket until the Last Day. On that Day, the Bible says her body will be reunited with her soul (spirit).

My questions to you: Where do our souls go at death, and where do they reside until the Last Day?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Okay, please let's wrestle with that idea a bit. Friday my 95 y/o aunt-in-law died in her sleep. She, to all appearances, was a Christian. Let's go with the idea that she truly died in the Lord. Her body will be buried on Monday and will lie underground in a casket until the Last Day. On that Day, the Bible says her body will be reunited with her soul (spirit).

My questions to you: Where do our souls go at death, and where do they reside until the Last Day?

We see a fair amount in scripture, for example:

Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
NKJV

I'd say that it is safe to say that those who are in Christ are in heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I'd say that it is safe to say that those who are in Christ are in heaven.

Thank you. I agree.

Now (just humor me here), why shouldn't we pray to (converse with? Talk to?) those loved ones who are in heaven?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Thank you. I agree.

Now (just humor me here), why shouldn't we pray to (converse with? talk to?) those loved ones who are in heaven?

Several reasons that come to mind immediately:

1) If we are seeking something from God, why go to a fellow subject of the king to ask, when we have an invitation to go directly to the throne of the king anytime?

2) There is no indication in scripture that they know what is going on here (I suspect that they are too caught up in the glory of God to wonder what is happening here. Further, I also suspect that time does not proceed these as it does here.

3) If Satan can deceive even the elect by masquerading as an angel of light, then how much easier it would be for him or his demons to masquerade as one of our loved ones and mislead us further into false occultic practices.

4) Scripture forbids it.

5) We find absolutely no endorsement of it in scripture, nor any positive examples.

6) We have one example of communication with a dead saint (Samuel) and that did not go well for the person who initiated the discussion.

7) We have one example of a dead person who wanted to communicate with a living person and was denied (Luke 16:27)

8) Prayer is a form of worship belong only to God.

Give me some time and I am sure that there are a number of others. The one thing that I cannot think of is any good reason to pray to a dead saint, or a dead loved one, other than personal desire to talk with them again. But that is a man-centered, not a God-centered desire.

Akoue,
That IS a good question.
Fred

So this question has spread to 9 pages of arguments for and against. There seem to be a great division on what the scriptures say. Many seem to be trying to argue a point of religious teaching that is propagated by some long dead leader who may or may not have been right. So far there is no scriptural argument in favor of praying to the dead theory except those teachings put forth by religious leaders. The same arguments are rehashed time and again. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree and close this thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

So this question has spread to 9 pages of arguments for and against. There seem to be a great division on what the scriptures say. Many seem to be trying to argue a point of religious teaching that is propagated by some long dead leader who may or may not have been right. So far there is no scriptural argument in favor of praying to the dead theory except those teachings put forth by religious leaders. The same arguments are rehashed time and again. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree and close this thread?

You hot the nail on the head. The two sides have two different standards of truth. One side depends upon their denominational teachings, The other bases their position on scripture. Until we can agree on a comon basis of understanding, there is no hope of coming to a common position.

As a result, I agree that the thread might as well be closed.

450donn ,
I think you are right that it isd time to agree to diagree.
But...
I think that when Scripture says we should pray for each other it means not matter where we are, on earth or in heaven.
I know that when I get to heaven I WILL pray for all those whom I know and whom I love also for anyone who asks me to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn ,
I think you are right that it isd time to agree to diagree.
But....
I think that when Scripture says we should pray for each other it means not matter where we are, on earth or in heaven.
I know that when I get to heaven I WILL pray for all those whom I know and whom I love also for anyone who asks me to.

The difference is, Fred, when we try to communicate with the dead, which is prohibited in scripture.

Tj3,
I do not try to communicate with the dead.
The saints in heaven are alive, much more than you and I are.
Jesus said they are. I believe what Jesus says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I do not try to communicate with the dead.
The saints in heaven are alive, much more than you and I are.
Jesus said they are. I believe what Jesus says.

Fred, the word means "dead in the flesh".

If it meant what you claim, then there would have been no need for God to prohibit speaking to the dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred, the word means "dead in the flesh".

If it meant what you claim, then there would have been no need for God to prohibit speaking to the dead.

My paternal grandfather died in 1967. He lived his faith. His body is buried in a cemetery in suburban Chicago. His spirit, soul, the essence of him is where?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

My paternal grandfather died in 1967. He lived his faith. His body is buried in a cemetery in suburban Chicago. His spirit, soul, the essence of him is where?

I do not like dealing with individuals because I do not know the person and I do not know the hearts of the individuals. I only know what scripture says which is that those who die in Christ are with the Lord.

Tj3,
Sorry, I do not agree with you.
I believe in the communion of saints both here and in heaven none of whom are dead.
Fred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Sorry, I do not agree with you.
I believe in the communion of saints both here and in heaven none of whom are dead.
Fred.

No one said anything about communion of the saints. But I find it interesting that you believe that no one ever dies in the flesh. Try speaking to some doctors, funeral homes, other in fact - anyone.

Tj3,
I never said or inferred that no one ever dies.
Quit twisting what I say.
That is one of your BAD habits.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I never said or inferred that no one ever dies.
Quit twisting what I say.
That is one of your BAD habits.
Fred

Well, we are talking about those who are dead in the flesh, and you responded by saying that no one in heaven is dead, thus that must logically mean that you are saying that no one in heaven is dead in the flesh - so?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I do not like dealing with individuals because I do not know the person and I do not know the hearts of the individuals. I only know what scripture says which is that those who die in Christ are with the Lord.

Okay then. You didn't know my grandfather, so let's use you instead (since you know your own heart). You die in a car accident tomorrow. You die in Christ. Your dead body will be buried or cremated. We know your body is then beyond any means of communication. Where is the essence of Tom, his soul, his spirit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Okay then. You didn't know my grandfather, so let's use you instead (since you know your own heart). You die in a car accident tomorrow. You die in Christ. Your dead body will be buried or cremated. Where is the essence of Tom, his soul, his spirit?

Heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Heaven.

What condition are you in? Asleep? Awake?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What condition are you in? Asleep? Awake?

Awake.

Are you busy?

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

What will you pray that God will do for Tom?

Wondergirl,
I will pray for the help God knows Tom needs.
God knows what each one of us needs.
Sometime we get some help with that, other times not.
So it is a good thing to pray for.
In my case I'm sure that God knows what I really need better than I do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You won't be too busy with other important work, Fred? You'll still set aside time for prayer?

Wondergirl,
That is if God so wills.
I think that God' attitude about praying for people on earth would be very good.
After all He sent Hid Son to be with us and die for us.
That's a lot of love.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

Fred
How then do you resolve Lk24:39? See my hands and my feet, that it is myself; touch me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
Or Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and is sharper than any two edged sword and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow and able to judge th3e thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Lv19:31 do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am your Lord your God. Lv20:27 Now a man or woman who is a medium or spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones and their bloodguiltiness is upon them. Lk11:2 Father, Hallowed be your name, Your kingdom come.

Are we not taught by the Lord that any attempts at contact with the spirit world is Satanism? So how can your unfounded arguments be anything but a veiled attempt to communicate with the dead. Heck, you might as well go to a medium and spend your money!

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from the word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from teh word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

Let's not misrepresent what Akoue has said. Akoue said that the ENGLISH word "necrotic" refers to dead tissue. Akoue also said that the GREEK word "nekros" just means dead and that the GREEK verb "nekroo" means to make dead. Akoue has also pointed out that your attempt to read a NT distinction back into Dt 18 is anachronistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from teh word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

First, Why would you think the dead go to heaven in flesh bodies....

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Scripture is speaking about the departure of the spirit from the flesh body. The flesh body returns to dust of the earth from where it came.... (Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

Those spirit that return unto God, we are told not to mess with...nor call upon them.. It is to your own harm and risk to do so.

*************
Scripture says if Christ be in your body while you are here in the flesh (meaning you have faith and walk in Christ) then your your body is dead to sin ( because you are buried in Christ when baptized)
Yet know the spirit within the flesh is life because of the obedience in righteousness you will follow.. (Romans 8:10)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

First, Why would you think the dead go to heaven in flesh bodies....

I don't. You totally missed my point. Please read the entire section of this thread.

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.
There is a difference.
Yes God the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits but are you saying that Jesus says not to contact them in that passage?
I think not.
There is a big difference between the spirits in heaven and the spirits of hell.
Don't you agree?
Fred

NONE of which are we suppose to contact. I have given you numerous scriptures to support this position, and you have not given one in support of it. How come?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Let's not misrepresent what Akoue has said. Akoue said that the ENGLISH word "necrotic" refers to dead tissue. Akoue also said that the GREEK word "nekros" just means dead and that the GREEK verb "nekroo" means to make dead.

Akoue is wrong then.

Nekros - Greek Lexicon

properly

1. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
2. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
3. destitute of life, without life, inanimate

Also note:

Word Origin: from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)

Quote:

Akoue has also pointed out that your attempt to read a NT distinction back into Dt 18 is anachronistic.

Akoue made a claim which has not been validated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

It does matter whether they are dead in the flesh since the Bible prohibits speaking to those who are dead in the flesh without differentiating whether they are saved or unsaved.

Whether those souls can pray is not the question. The question is whether we should be praying to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.
There is a difference.
Yes God the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits but are you saying that Jesus says not to contact them in that passage?
I think not.
There is a big difference between the spirits in heaven and the spirits of hell.
Don't you agree?
Fred

Fred,

There is a difference between bad and good spirits.. yet the fact still remains that we are not to call to the spirit world (plural) as you have mentioned. We are told to prayer to The Father, call upon Him. He is near.... He has come forth to us.... it is His arms he says you should trust.... Hearken unto me, if you understand righteousness... His children know His law...

How do people turn their backs on His Will, and decide they will pray to saints? It is like asking someone else for the salt on the dinner table, yet the Father sits right next to them holding the salt.

The truth is that God will reveal unto anyone who follows Him. Those who deny themselves, who affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone other then Him to follow. (Matthew 16:24)

I see that many have chosen to follow man instead..

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Israel 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
Israel 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.

At least that is who you are TRYING to contact. But since scripture prohibits this, why do you think that you would be able to do so? There is only one case in scripture of anyone contacting a dead saint and that did not go well for the person who initiated that contact.