[Tj3]

Non, nein, nope.

I don't think I could have made my position any more clear. Here it is in numbered propositions:

1. Scripture encourages intercessory prayer.
2. The saints enjoy the eternal life that was promised them and are alive with the Father.
3. The saints in heaven pray and worship.
4. We can ask the saints to offer intercessory prayers because they are alive with the Father.
5. There is nothing illicit about 4.

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself so I'll let you have the last word.

You claimed that the support fro your position comes from that passage that you took out of context (which is actually about whether the dead are resurrected) about God being "God of the Living" (despite the fact that Deut 18 condemns communication with those who are dead in the flesh).

So your position is inconsistent. If you are saying that it is okay to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh because they are actually alive. Then one of those point that I stated must be true of your beliefs. Otherwise you are presenting a contradictory position.

[Wondergirl]

If you are saying that it is okay to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh because they are actually alive. Then one of those point that I stated must be true of your beliefs. Otherwise you are presenting a contradictory position.

Okay, please let's wrestle with that idea a bit. Friday my 95 y/o aunt-in-law died in her sleep. She, to all appearances, was a Christian. Let's go with the idea that she truly died in the Lord. Her body will be buried on Monday and will lie underground in a casket until the Last Day. On that Day, the Bible says her body will be reunited with her soul (spirit).

My questions to you: Where do our souls go at death, and where do they reside until the Last Day?

[Tj3]

Okay, please let's wrestle with that idea a bit. Friday my 95 y/o aunt-in-law died in her sleep. She, to all appearances, was a Christian. Let's go with the idea that she truly died in the Lord. Her body will be buried on Monday and will lie underground in a casket until the Last Day. On that Day, the Bible says her body will be reunited with her soul (spirit).

My questions to you: Where do our souls go at death, and where do they reside until the Last Day?

We see a fair amount in scripture, for example:

Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
NKJV

I'd say that it is safe to say that those who are in Christ are in heaven.

[Wondergirl]

I'd say that it is safe to say that those who are in Christ are in heaven.

Thank you. I agree.

Now (just humor me here), why shouldn't we pray to (converse with? Talk to?) those loved ones who are in heaven?

[Tj3]

Thank you. I agree.

Now (just humor me here), why shouldn't we pray to (converse with? talk to?) those loved ones who are in heaven?

Several reasons that come to mind immediately:

1) If we are seeking something from God, why go to a fellow subject of the king to ask, when we have an invitation to go directly to the throne of the king anytime?

2) There is no indication in scripture that they know what is going on here (I suspect that they are too caught up in the glory of God to wonder what is happening here. Further, I also suspect that time does not proceed these as it does here.

3) If Satan can deceive even the elect by masquerading as an angel of light, then how much easier it would be for him or his demons to masquerade as one of our loved ones and mislead us further into false occultic practices.

4) Scripture forbids it.

5) We find absolutely no endorsement of it in scripture, nor any positive examples.

6) We have one example of communication with a dead saint (Samuel) and that did not go well for the person who initiated the discussion.

7) We have one example of a dead person who wanted to communicate with a living person and was denied (Luke 16:27)

8) Prayer is a form of worship belong only to God.

Give me some time and I am sure that there are a number of others. The one thing that I cannot think of is any good reason to pray to a dead saint, or a dead loved one, other than personal desire to talk with them again. But that is a man-centered, not a God-centered desire.

[arcura]

Akoue,
That IS a good question.
Fred

[450donn]

So this question has spread to 9 pages of arguments for and against. There seem to be a great division on what the scriptures say. Many seem to be trying to argue a point of religious teaching that is propagated by some long dead leader who may or may not have been right. So far there is no scriptural argument in favor of praying to the dead theory except those teachings put forth by religious leaders. The same arguments are rehashed time and again. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree and close this thread?

[Tj3]

So this question has spread to 9 pages of arguments for and against. There seem to be a great division on what the scriptures say. Many seem to be trying to argue a point of religious teaching that is propagated by some long dead leader who may or may not have been right. So far there is no scriptural argument in favor of praying to the dead theory except those teachings put forth by religious leaders. The same arguments are rehashed time and again. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree and close this thread?

You hot the nail on the head. The two sides have two different standards of truth. One side depends upon their denominational teachings, The other bases their position on scripture. Until we can agree on a comon basis of understanding, there is no hope of coming to a common position.

As a result, I agree that the thread might as well be closed.

[arcura]

450donn ,
I think you are right that it isd time to agree to diagree.
But...
I think that when Scripture says we should pray for each other it means not matter where we are, on earth or in heaven.
I know that when I get to heaven I WILL pray for all those whom I know and whom I love also for anyone who asks me to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

450donn ,
I think you are right that it isd time to agree to diagree.
But....
I think that when Scripture says we should pray for each other it means not matter where we are, on earth or in heaven.
I know that when I get to heaven I WILL pray for all those whom I know and whom I love also for anyone who asks me to.

The difference is, Fred, when we try to communicate with the dead, which is prohibited in scripture.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I do not try to communicate with the dead.
The saints in heaven are alive, much more than you and I are.
Jesus said they are. I believe what Jesus says.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I do not try to communicate with the dead.
The saints in heaven are alive, much more than you and I are.
Jesus said they are. I believe what Jesus says.

Fred, the word means "dead in the flesh".

If it meant what you claim, then there would have been no need for God to prohibit speaking to the dead.

[Wondergirl]

Fred, the word means "dead in the flesh".

If it meant what you claim, then there would have been no need for God to prohibit speaking to the dead.

My paternal grandfather died in 1967. He lived his faith. His body is buried in a cemetery in suburban Chicago. His spirit, soul, the essence of him is where?

[Tj3]

My paternal grandfather died in 1967. He lived his faith. His body is buried in a cemetery in suburban Chicago. His spirit, soul, the essence of him is where?

I do not like dealing with individuals because I do not know the person and I do not know the hearts of the individuals. I only know what scripture says which is that those who die in Christ are with the Lord.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Sorry, I do not agree with you.
I believe in the communion of saints both here and in heaven none of whom are dead.
Fred.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Sorry, I do not agree with you.
I believe in the communion of saints both here and in heaven none of whom are dead.
Fred.

No one said anything about communion of the saints. But I find it interesting that you believe that no one ever dies in the flesh. Try speaking to some doctors, funeral homes, other in fact - anyone.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I never said or inferred that no one ever dies.
Quit twisting what I say.
That is one of your BAD habits.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I never said or inferred that no one ever dies.
Quit twisting what I say.
That is one of your BAD habits.
Fred

Well, we are talking about those who are dead in the flesh, and you responded by saying that no one in heaven is dead, thus that must logically mean that you are saying that no one in heaven is dead in the flesh - so?

[Wondergirl]

I do not like dealing with individuals because I do not know the person and I do not know the hearts of the individuals. I only know what scripture says which is that those who die in Christ are with the Lord.

Okay then. You didn't know my grandfather, so let's use you instead (since you know your own heart). You die in a car accident tomorrow. You die in Christ. Your dead body will be buried or cremated. We know your body is then beyond any means of communication. Where is the essence of Tom, his soul, his spirit?

[Tj3]

Okay then. You didn't know my grandfather, so let's use you instead (since you know your own heart). You die in a car accident tomorrow. You die in Christ. Your dead body will be buried or cremated. Where is the essence of Tom, his soul, his spirit?

Heaven.