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Wondergirl · Mar 30, 2009, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Heaven.

What condition are you in? Asleep? Awake?

Tj3 · Mar 30, 2009, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What condition are you in? Asleep? Awake?

Awake.

Wondergirl · Mar 30, 2009, 10:41 PM

Are you busy?

arcura · Mar 30, 2009, 10:44 PM

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 30, 2009, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

What will you pray that God will do for Tom?

arcura · Mar 30, 2009, 11:04 PM

Wondergirl,
I will pray for the help God knows Tom needs.
God knows what each one of us needs.
Sometime we get some help with that, other times not.
So it is a good thing to pray for.
In my case I'm sure that God knows what I really need better than I do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 30, 2009, 11:06 PM

You won't be too busy with other important work, Fred? You'll still set aside time for prayer?

arcura · Mar 30, 2009, 11:39 PM

Wondergirl,
That is if God so wills.
I think that God' attitude about praying for people on earth would be very good.
After all He sent Hid Son to be with us and die for us.
That's a lot of love.
Fred

450donn · Mar 31, 2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

Fred
How then do you resolve Lk24:39? See my hands and my feet, that it is myself; touch me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
Or Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and is sharper than any two edged sword and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow and able to judge th3e thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Lv19:31 do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am your Lord your God. Lv20:27 Now a man or woman who is a medium or spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones and their bloodguiltiness is upon them. Lk11:2 Father, Hallowed be your name, Your kingdom come.

Are we not taught by the Lord that any attempts at contact with the spirit world is Satanism? So how can your unfounded arguments be anything but a veiled attempt to communicate with the dead. Heck, you might as well go to a medium and spend your money!

Tj3 · Mar 31, 2009, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from the word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

Akoue · Mar 31, 2009, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from teh word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

Let's not misrepresent what Akoue has said. Akoue said that the ENGLISH word "necrotic" refers to dead tissue. Akoue also said that the GREEK word "nekros" just means dead and that the GREEK verb "nekroo" means to make dead. Akoue has also pointed out that your attempt to read a NT distinction back into Dt 18 is anachronistic.

Wondergirl · Mar 31, 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from teh word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

sndbay · Mar 31, 2009, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

First, Why would you think the dead go to heaven in flesh bodies....

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Scripture is speaking about the departure of the spirit from the flesh body. The flesh body returns to dust of the earth from where it came.... (Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

Those spirit that return unto God, we are told not to mess with...nor call upon them.. It is to your own harm and risk to do so.

*************
Scripture says if Christ be in your body while you are here in the flesh (meaning you have faith and walk in Christ) then your your body is dead to sin ( because you are buried in Christ when baptized)
Yet know the spirit within the flesh is life because of the obedience in righteousness you will follow.. (Romans 8:10)

Wondergirl · Mar 31, 2009, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by sndbay

First, Why would you think the dead go to heaven in flesh bodies....

I don't. You totally missed my point. Please read the entire section of this thread.

arcura · Mar 31, 2009, 03:45 PM

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.
There is a difference.
Yes God the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits but are you saying that Jesus says not to contact them in that passage?
I think not.
There is a big difference between the spirits in heaven and the spirits of hell.
Don't you agree?
Fred

450donn · Mar 31, 2009, 04:02 PM

NONE of which are we suppose to contact. I have given you numerous scriptures to support this position, and you have not given one in support of it. How come?

Tj3 · Mar 31, 2009, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Akoue

Let's not misrepresent what Akoue has said. Akoue said that the ENGLISH word "necrotic" refers to dead tissue. Akoue also said that the GREEK word "nekros" just means dead and that the GREEK verb "nekroo" means to make dead.

Akoue is wrong then.

Nekros - Greek Lexicon

properly

1. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
2. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
3. destitute of life, without life, inanimate

Also note:

Word Origin: from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)

Akoue has also pointed out that your attempt to read a NT distinction back into Dt 18 is anachronistic.

Akoue made a claim which has not been validated.

Tj3 · Mar 31, 2009, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

It does matter whether they are dead in the flesh since the Bible prohibits speaking to those who are dead in the flesh without differentiating whether they are saved or unsaved.

Whether those souls can pray is not the question. The question is whether we should be praying to them.

sndbay · Mar 31, 2009, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.
There is a difference.
Yes God the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits but are you saying that Jesus says not to contact them in that passage?
I think not.
There is a big difference between the spirits in heaven and the spirits of hell.
Don't you agree?
Fred

Fred,

There is a difference between bad and good spirits.. yet the fact still remains that we are not to call to the spirit world (plural) as you have mentioned. We are told to prayer to The Father, call upon Him. He is near.... He has come forth to us.... it is His arms he says you should trust.... Hearken unto me, if you understand righteousness... His children know His law...

How do people turn their backs on His Will, and decide they will pray to saints? It is like asking someone else for the salt on the dinner table, yet the Father sits right next to them holding the salt.

The truth is that God will reveal unto anyone who follows Him. Those who deny themselves, who affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone other then Him to follow. (Matthew 16:24)

I see that many have chosen to follow man instead..

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Israel 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
Israel 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Tj3 · Mar 31, 2009, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.

At least that is who you are TRYING to contact. But since scripture prohibits this, why do you think that you would be able to do so? There is only one case in scripture of anyone contacting a dead saint and that did not go well for the person who initiated that contact.