[indoctrin8ed]

Let's assume I begin working on something in my home that was at or above code when it was installed, but I need to make some changes or upgrades.

For example, let's say that what used to require 14 gauge wire now requires 12 gauge wire. If I decide to work on this circuit, do I need to upgrade all the wire in this circuit to meet new code requirements? Would that include anything that's spliced in to this circuit?Arguably, this might require upgrading all electrical in the house since it's all interconnected to some extent.

What are the rules for doing partial upgrades?

How does an inspector view this in the future?

I've had electricians offer to do work without pulling permits, or with the option of pulling a permit for substantial work. Is this unethical?

Many thanks,

E

[nmwirez]

Let's assume I begin working on something in my home that was at or above code when it was installed, but I need to make some changes or upgrades.

For example, let's say that what used to require 14 gauge wire now requires 12 gauge wire. If I decide to work on this circuit, do I need to upgrade all the wire in this circuit to meet new code requirements? Would that include anything that's spliced in to this circuit?Arguably, this might require upgrading all electrical in the house since it's all interconnected to some extent.

What are the rules for doing partial upgrades?

How does an inspector view this in the future?

I've had electricians offer to do work without pulling permits, or with the option of pulling a permit for substantial work. Is this unethical?

Many thanks,

E

Most Jurisdictions require permits and inspections on house wiring alterations. Bootlegged wiring carries liabilities that insurance companies will contest... should there be a fire.

A red flag goes up in my mind when I hear wiring that is spliced common throughout the house. Each branch circuit requires its breaker and rating to match the required AWG sizes. (i.e. 14 awg for 15A, 12 awg for 20A breakers) No mixing of wire sizes.
There are tap conditions that are allowed for baseboard heating circuits and cooking appliances in residential wiring but that's about it.

In most areas, you can pull your own permit and hire a licensed electrician should you desire to run the job and hold to your own liabilities. Getting a reputable contractor will do all this for you and contracts for the responsibility should something go wrong.

[indoctrin8ed]

You are explaining the process for how to perform work (permit processes), which I already understand and was not inquiring about. You also go into details about liabilities with fire damages and insurance companies. Separate issue as well, yet unrelated to my question. Third, I was not suggesting nor did I say that wire is spliced throughout the house. I'm merely suggesting that all the wiring touches all the other wiring through some other connection, beginning with the meter.

What I'm getting at is when a problem is discovered by someone that has begun or is about to begin to work on their electrical system, are they responsible for fixing the entire system from end to end or can part of it be upgraded even though the rest of the system is still below code? I recently began upgrading and relocating my he service panel and disconnect and I'm finding dozens of problems that were there before I bought the home. I'm doing everything to code that I touch, but what if something that was already there is below code is now interfacing with my service panel – am I now required to replace those items too or can I allow them to stay because they were code at the time they were installed?

This is not clear to me.

I'm also curious how an inspector would view these items. An electrician in the business would know the answer to this because I'm sure he's sees this situation all the time.

[nmwirez]

E,
I understand where your questions are a little more now by what you replied and are asking. My answers were from a base of my past experience as an inside (commercial)and residential wireman.
I always made sure I had good neighbors, parked the material loaded van in the back and avoided skillsaws cranking late at night. Working out in the back 40 was never a problem. Getting caught can be painful and unrewarding should the AHJ drive in unexpectedly. That is a given nowadays. Anyone can wire for a friend who has gotten a permit in most jurisdictions without problems. I am retired, lapsed license and have done that recently.

Let's assume I begin working on something in my home that was at or above code when it was installed, but I need to make some changes or upgrades.

Answer: Let's also assume the house was built in the 1940's to that code then. I could see where many upgrades would be needed now. That era house was up to code then when K&T was the norm and it is still grandfathered by code now...until...you need to upgrade a circuit. As per example, additional outlets are needed in the remod of, lets say, a livingroom, bedroom addition. Any associated circuits being extended (added to) into the new construction require having grounding upgrading. Any gutted open wall routing requires that the K&T or non-grounding cable be torn out and replaced. That is NEC and most jurisdictions adopt the NEC rules.
In the simple instance, old outlets being modified to 3 prong, are allowed as long as there is a ground in that outlet. If not, then a GFCI replacement is needed in each outlet being changed over. If the bedroom wiring is being updated, then that whole room circuit needs to be changed over to an AFCI protected circuit. Only AFCI panel breakers are on the market now and need a grounding circuit from the panel to the bedroom(s), even to the smoke detectors in the bedroom. I hope you see why I answered initially the way I did.

For example, let's say that what used to require 14 gauge wire now requires 12 gauge wire. If I decide to work on this circuit, do I need to upgrade all the wire in this circuit to meet new code requirements? Would that include anything that's spliced in to this circuit?Arguably, this might require upgrading all electrical in the house since it's all interconnected to some extent.

Answer: Unbelievable as it may seem, codes going back 50 years have not changed the requirements for wire guage sizing required for each branch circuit conductor size for the loads being served. General circuits are still 14awg, kitchen small appliances are still 12 awg as is the clothes washer, and bathroom receptacles that need to be on a GFCI now...and so on. Hot water heater has changed from 12-2 to 10-2 and cl dryer is 10-3 all with grounds now. Cooking appliances 8 to 6 awg and baseboard heaters 10 awg allow smaller taps.
None of the house branch circuits are interconnected throughout the house. They all require their own hot conductor and neutral of each parallel outlet string. The equipment grounding conductor (EGC) is the only common connected conductor (bare) in the house.

What are the rules for doing partial upgrades?
Answer: pretty much covered above without noting NEC section references. Does this help E?


How does an inspector view this in the future?
Answer: A good electrical AHJ will scope out wiring. Telling an inspector that the wiring was that way when you bought the house can be disputed from comparing the dated material installed. A dated inspection sticker on the panel verifies approved upgrade that is used for a future home resale value point.

I've had electricians offer to do work without pulling permits, or with the option of pulling a permit for substantial work. Is this unethical?
Answer: Licensed pulling permit is ethical, but it is unfair to the whole electrical trade by an installer working under the counter for the clients. More often than not, non code practices of installations are done that is not qualified without professional inspection. As an example, I would not be able to install electrical to code in Florida because I am not familiar to that areas practiced adopted code. Mistakes will happen that need professional verification for correction.

Many thanks,

E

You are welcome. I hope this helps. nm wirez