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jessechenven · May 9, 2012, 10:43 PM

I am installing a washer in my basement (that has no waste line access) and was thinking of adding a utility sink and then installing an enclosed laundry pump under, such as one of these, to deal with the grey water:
-Zoeller
-Drainosaur

Both of these need to be vented (and I've read through the existing threads on this), but I just have no way to get from the pump location to either the main stack or to the outside without more demolition than I can handle/afford. I know I can't use an AAV since there is both positive and negative pressure in the pump. I want to know what would be the issue with just running a vent pipe a few feet inside the basement (that is, not venting it outside)? I know, I know that open two-way venting allows sewer gases to escape, but in this case it is only laundry grey water (so no methane, or other "sewer gases").

I ask this because I saw a pump from Hartell that just vents up and over into the utility sink. See the diagram here:
-LTP

Thanks, Jesse

speedball1 · May 10, 2012, 07:09 AM

Where do you plan on connecting to the sewer main? And how do you plan to do it? Back to you

jessechenven · May 10, 2012, 09:26 AM

Thanks,
There is a kitchen sink that feeds into a 3" drain line about 7 feet up (thus the need for a pump) and 18 feet across from where the washer will discharge. The problem is that that sink uses an AAV since the original vent pipe was taken out during remodeling years ago. Does that make sense?

speedball1 · May 10, 2012, 09:39 AM

There is a kitchen sink that feeds into a 3" drain line about 7 feet up (thus the need for a pump)

Since most washer pumps will pump up over 8 feet I'd simply cut in a "P" trap and a short stand pipe and make it a closed system using one of the connections shown. Sound like a plan? Tom

jessechenven · May 10, 2012, 10:55 AM

Sounds good. Sorry for the ignorance, but a few questions.

-So I would hook the washer outlet hose (with an extension to get the 7 feet I need) to the top of a standpipe which would then drop to p-trap and then flow (the 18 feet) out to the waste line? How high of a standpipe (if I am correctly understanding that the standpipe is the vertical line that drops into the trap)? If it is too long, won't that raise the height I need to pump and/or put the drain pipe too low (to walk under, etc.)?

Hope I'm understanding you right.

speedball1 · May 10, 2012, 03:50 PM

If I understand it the drain you wish to connect to is 18 feet away and not overhead?
If that's the case how far down from the floor joists is the drain you want to connect to. You'll need 4 1/2" of slope on a 18' run. Please tell me I'm wrong and you can connect overhead and the sink line runs 18 feet before it connects to a stack. Back to you. Tom

jessechenven · May 13, 2012, 07:14 PM

Hi Tom,

Sorry for the delay, I was out of town for the weekend. See the attached drawing. So, the washer will go in the basement. The closest drain is 14 feet away (I said 18', but just measured again). This drain line comes from the kitchen sink which is on an exterior block/brick wall. The drain line runs down from the sink as a 1 1/2" line, through the 7.5" floor joists, another 10" below the bottom of the joists before it opens up to a 3" line (no other waste lines come in). This 3" line drops another 11" before it hits dirt, does a 90, and exits the building underneath the footing (where it meets up with a 4" main from the bathroom that exits the other side of the house). This is only a partial basement, thus the dirt 21" below the joists in the spot where the waste line is.

Where I want to put my washer, the ceiling height is 6'8", and it is drywalled over the joists (although I don't mind tearing into it if I need to). Now, with 14' of distance to cover, I need 3.5" of drop on the waste line to get the proper slope. In between where I want to put the washer and where the drain line is, there is a utility area where I have my furnace and water heater. Ideally, I don't want the waste line too low in there, but I can compromise. That space is in the first 7' of my distance from the washer to the sink waste line. The next 7 feet is a crawl space.

See the attached drawing for a better idea of what I'm talking about.

My original idea was to pump up into a line that would run through the joists until it got to the crawl space where it would drop down. I'm not set on the pump idea and would love to just run the washer straight to the waste line, but want to be sure I have the room to do it.

Thanks for your patience,
Jesse

speedball1 · May 14, 2012, 07:32 AM

This is doable! From the washer to the 3" connection. You will install a washer hose check valve next to the tub. That will prevent all the discharge in the pipe from draining back into the tub after the pump shuts off, I just had a thought. Is your kitchen sink vented through the roof? I need to know since I plan on wet venting the washer through it.. Back to you, Tom

jessechenven · May 14, 2012, 08:11 AM

No, the kitchen sink is vented through an AAV. There was an original roof vent that is still there, but the pipe is embedded in the wall and a challenge to get to (although if it were a deal breaker I could get to it. Thanks.

speedball1 · May 14, 2012, 11:10 AM

Will a permit be pulled for this job? Let me know. Tom

jessechenven · May 14, 2012, 01:33 PM

No, I'll be doing it undercover.

No, I will not be pulling a permit.

speedball1 · May 15, 2012, 05:48 AM

Ok! Do you have a plan or would you like me to lay it out? This set up may look a little weird but it will work using the kitchen as a wet vent. Get back to me with your thoughts. How do you think this should be laid out, Back to you, Tom

jessechenven · May 15, 2012, 08:16 AM

Tom, thanks for pushing me to think. Here are two ideas (see the crude attached drawings).

The first has the washer push the waste water up into the joists where it attaches to a sloping drain that doesn't vent or P until you get to the 3" tie in. It wet vents with the kitchen. It includes a check valve at the washer. This has the advantage of running through the joists and not affecting head space in the utility room.

The second one is a more traditional set up with the standpipe and p-trap right there and a AAV for venting. The standpipe would run up into the joists to give it the height it needs (I could definitely do 12", but would need to know if that is enough). It has the disadvantage of lowering my walkthrough height. On this one I would probably also put a check valve at the base of the washer, unless I was told otherwise. In both setups I would build a base for the washer to sit on, just to raise them up a little more.

Please critique/amend these setups, or suggest a third. One question I have in either is how large of a pipe should I run up from the discharge of the washer. I assume 1" is standard, but would 1.25" make sense?

Thanks

speedball1 · May 15, 2012, 11:59 AM

You have just about the same set up in both drawings. Only the trap position's been changed. However I have minor issues with both of them.
On #1 your first drawing only has 13 inched to play with. Subtract the slope and you're left with 9 1/2 inches. I question if that will be enough to install a trap and raiser plus a AAV. And where's the hose check valve on either drawing?
On #2 The line marked "wet vent" in un necessary.
So what's your pleasure? Door #1 or door #2?
Let me know what you think. Tom

jessechenven · May 15, 2012, 01:49 PM

Okay, so let's say I go with this one. Note the check valve at the base of the discharge outlet on the washer. Would you put it elsewhere? Why do I not need a vent, wet or otherwise? Any other issues with this setup? What would Tom do?

jessechenven · May 16, 2012, 06:17 AM

Let me first answer some of my own questions and let me know if I'm correct. You need a vent to prevent a p-trap from siphoning. You need a p-trap to prevent sewer gases from entering the building. With the system above it would seem like the pump line up from the washer will always have water in it since the check valve will prevent pumped water from going back down. In essence I'll have at least 3-5' of vertical water in that primary run from the washer to the top of the joists at any given time (assuming I use the washer enough to prevent evaporation.

So, a vent would not do much since it wouldn't be possible for the water to siphon out of the 3-5' of vertical pump line? Just to push the thinking further, tell me why I would even need a p-trap, since the pump line up to the joists, filled with water, would ostensibly prevent an gases from ever entering the building.

I still would like to know:
-Where is the best place for the check valve (at the base where I have it, or?)
-What other issues with this setup are there?
-What would Tom do? (if this were your house, how would you arrange it?)

Thanks for you time!

speedball1 · May 16, 2012, 07:26 AM

-Where is the best place for the check valve

You will install a hose check valve, (see image) on the hose coming out of the tub and connect to the 2" PVC raiser with a Fernco Flexible connection. (see image).
This will keep water trapped in the raiser and not let it drain back into the tub,

-What other issues with this setup are there?

the line marked "wet vent" is not needed. You will wet vent through the kitchen AAV.

What would Tom do?

I'd run it per your drawing. Good luck, Tom

jessechenven · May 16, 2012, 08:14 AM

Thanks for all your help over the years Tom. All the best.

speedball1 · May 16, 2012, 11:06 AM

And all the best right back atcha. Let me know how your project turned out. Good luck, Tom

jessechenven · May 27, 2012, 08:58 PM

Okay Tom (and anyone else),
Below is the final diagram of what I chose to do. The first picture shows the line up from the washer. I used a barbed steel connector (chromed, from Ace Hardware, see pic) that has a 1" NPT male on the other side. You can find plastic ones more readily, but I bought the steel because it has a slightly larger inside diameter than the plastic ones, and I was able to heat it up so it would slide into the plastic outflow hose easier. It is connected with a hose clamp.

It transitions there to 1 1/4" PVC, then to a Zoeller check valve, and back to 1 1/4 PVC up to the floor joists. There it does a 90 into 2" PVC which flows down to a P trap which is connected to a Tee-Wye on the 3" main.

One question: why would I need a P-trap here? I realize it probably doesn't do any harm, but since it's a closed system, wouldn't it be impossible for sewer gases to escape?

Thanks!