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bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 12:47 PM

Hello,

I have two prong outlets in my home (built around 1946). I have two outlets in the bedroom that need to be grounded. I have grounded a few other outlets in the house by running wire to a cold water pipe and a ground rod I installed. When I grounding those outlets, I ended up with quite a bit of plaster repair. Is there a way / and or a tool I can use to minimize or eliminate wall repair? Once I drill a hole in the sole plate (via my crawl space access), I will have unimpeded access to the electrical box.

Thank you.

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 01:08 PM

Do you need it to be grounded or just 3 prongs? Your could add a GFCI outlet to each box which will provide ground fault protection but it will not be a grounded outlet.

Maybe one of the electricans can come to this post and talk to how you grounded your other outlets, I don't think its entirely safe. Do you have a jumper ground wire across your water meter?

stanfortyman · Jul 10, 2009, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by bergs4

I have grounded a few other outlets in the house by running wire to a cold water pipe and a ground rod I installed.

Just so you know. This is NOT an acceptable method of obtaining a ground nor is it safe.
A cold water pipe can be used IF it is being used a grounding electrode AND if the connection is made within 5' of where the pipe enter the house.

A ground rod alone is NEVER a source of ground in the context that you need it, unless it is also bonded to the grounding electrode system or main panel.

I suggest you read up on NEC section 250.130(C).

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 05:15 PM

If I do go the GFCI route, what are potential downsides?

Also, just curious, why does the code prohibit using the ground rod / pipe for grounding individual outlets? Is it it to protect plumbers in the case of the pipe becoming energized?

Thank you.

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 05:37 PM

Codes vary but its likely a code violation. It protects you and the plumber. The downside of a GFCI is that its not a ground just a fault detector. Did you answer my question in post #2, grounded or just 3 prongs?

stanfortyman · Jul 10, 2009, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by bergs4

Also, just curious, why does the code prohibit using the ground rod / pipe for grounding individual outlets? Is it it to protect plumbers in the case of the pipe becoming energized?

Grounding a receptacle comes from the neutral bond in the main panel. NOT from the earth.

Ground rods and water pipe electrodes serve a completely different purpose.
A water bond prevents metallic piping system(s) from becoming energized.

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 06:47 PM

Sorry -- would like both . It is incredibly frustrating to have only two prong outlets when many things these days come with three prong plugs. Yet, I do realize that the plugs are three-pronged for a reason. Since the outlets are in the bedroom, I anticipate that I will use them for a computer, lamps etc.

At this point, it would be cost-prohibitive to have an electrician rewire the outlet / update the service panel. So, I am looking for a solution that I know will have to be a compromise that will provide the most safety for my family, yet is also practical.

Thank you.

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 06:50 PM

Current new construction codes call for bedrooms to be ARC faults rather than GFCI. Are yourwires inside conduit, probably not with this age.

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 06:51 PM

No, the wires are in the paper wrap -- I forget what it is called. Not knob and tube though.

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 06:55 PM

K&T looks like this, is it what you have? Knob and tube wiring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

stanfortyman · Jul 10, 2009, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Current new construction codes call for bedrooms to be ARC faults rather than GFCI.

Right, but he is upgrading the receptacles, not the branch circuits. It is the branch circuit that requires AFCI protection, not the receptacles.

The point about GFI protection is that it is a legal way to install three-prong replacement receptacles on a circuit without a ground.

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:03 PM

No; it's not that. The best I can describe it would be like romex cable with no ground, except instead of the plastic / rubber sheathing it's like a rubberized fabric on my wires.

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:04 PM

Mine is like the wire in the upper right portion of this photo:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-and-tubes.jpg

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:05 PM

Ok we are making some progress, not K&T. Romex is plastic cable, did you mean BX BX Cable

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:06 PM

Crappers , we are back to K&T

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:12 PM

With respect to the GFI being the legal way to replace a two prong with three, I guess I'm still wondering safety-wise, is there a downside to having only a GFI as my uderstanding is that in new construction the GFI would be grounded as well.

No, no -- not knob and tube.

If you look at that photo, there is both knob and tube wiring (as I understand it) and the type of wiring I have , the name of which I don't remember.

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:20 PM

The picture you posted was knob and tube so I am getting confused here but maybe you are referring to that silver looking cable at the bottom of the picture. If money and the amount of work is your concern then go with individul GFCI receptacles, safer than what you have, $15 per receptacle and legal. You can't have it all without having a electrician tearing it all out.

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:23 PM

Okay, I'll do the GFIs then. Thanks for the patience and help.

stanfortyman · Jul 10, 2009, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by bergs4

With respect to the GFI being the legal way to replace a two prong with three, I guess I'm still wondering safety-wise, is there a downside to having only a GFI as my uderstanding is that in new construction the GFI would be grounded as well.

A new installation would have a ground run. It's been required for many many years.

A GFI protecting a circuit without a ground is much safer, but it still does not provide you with a ground that many modern electronics require.

bergs4 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:24 PM

Okay, that makes sense.

Thanks for the help.