[Str8stack71]

Hello. I was wondering if someone might have some advice for me. We have partially finsihed our basement, however, one of the walls has a spot about 5 feet long and about 1 foot high off the bottom that has moisture coming through the block. All the pipes and down spouts have been placed outside our house so that the water runs away from our house. The basement is completely dry except for this one area on this one wall. We have a wood stove in the basement which we used to help dry out the moisture on the wall and then we tried dry-loking the walls, but the moisture has come through the dry-lok and now there is mold forming on the bottom of the wall in that one area again. We have a trench at the bottom of the basement wall that goes all the way around and dumps into a sump pump which kicks it outside. The sump pump hardly ever runs.
Is there anything that I can do to stop this moisture and mold from forming on the wall? Basically, I'm just looking for a way to paint that wall without the mold forming on it or the paint coming off from the moisture.

Thanks for any advice.

[twinkiedooter]

With a problem like this there are a few fixes you could try. Have you had any landscaping at that side of the house that has rearranged the dirt so it makes the water flow into the basement? If not, then the only recourse will be (unfortunately) would be from the outside of the basement to dig out that side of the basement and see just what is going on there as there could be a huge crack on the outside that is letting the water into the basement. Just putting more "stuff" on the inside does not seem to be the answer as the problem is obviously on the outside of the basement.

[Str8stack71]

Thanks so much for your reply, actually we did dig it up when we had the band board on that side of the house replaced. We dug down to check it out... everything checked out OK. Nothing broken or cracked. Majority of the basement is about 1/4 above the ground level... that one area happens to be completely below ground level. It baffles me that I can't seem to figure this out. Yard has been re-graded and shouldn't be leaking into basement. It doesn't leak all the time... just when we have more than normal rainfall... living here in Maryland, we have lately had quite a bit of snow, sleet and rain in the past few weeks. 90% of the time, everything is bone dry. At the moment, with all this rainfall we have had, the trench at the bottom of the wall is moist, but there's not water in the trench.

If nothing else, maybe some ideas of how I can just work around it would be great... possibly I could build some type of cabinet or sitting bench in that area so that I'm hiding the problem and at the same time, allowing the air to be able to get in there to dry it. Also this might allow me to get away with not having to paint that area...

Any thoughts?

[CyFree]

I would call the people who installed the trench drain in your basement. And demand that they deal with it.
If you have an interior drainage system as you describe, to collect water and divert it to a sump pump this kind of leakage should not be happening, period.
Was the system serviced and maintained on a regular basis?
Your basement should be dry all around because those systems are design to intercept exactly the kind of leakage you describe.
Your grading and downspouts are properly diverting water ways from the foundation as you say so this leakage should not be happening at all.
You drainage system might be clogged, and in that case, you will need to call the installer to flush it, or it might not have been properly installed.
No drylock or paint will do it, because sealants usually don't handle hydrostatic pressure well.
You need to relieve the pressure and that is what that drain along the basement walls is for. If it I isn't doing it, Something is wrong.
Call the waterproofing company and really demand answers!

[Str8stack71]

Thanks for your reply... and your thoughts... every part of what you wrote was helpful except that part about calling the water proofer... our house is 40 yrs old... and the trench has always been around the bottom... he have always kept it cleaned out and there has been a sump pump down there for years... its just a small area that seems to be seeping and I can't seem to figure it out... its sounding as thought I may just have to deal with it...
Thanks again.

[AnTa_Plumber]

Hi, there!
By your description, situation is next:
Sump pump is collecting water from inside "weeping tile system". Outside if you dig down for 6'-8' (check how deep is your basement from level of window) There you will see weeping tile (you have one for sure, houses 40-50 years ols have "clay weeping tile". That "caly ttile" is not a pipe!! There are a lot of small porsions of it. With time one peace getting down. And what we have now?
Blocked tile. Water doesn't have change to go away. It stopped at point where thoses peaces un-leveled. Then water start looking for way to go. And of course, it's basement (low preassure place).
You said you have mold on a bottom of your wall (weeping tile from outside sits little bit lower then your foundation). Because a lot of water sits outside, you bricks become wet with time. But!! It's no river yet. It means that it's enough time for brick to get dry a bit with time.
If you really worry about your foundation you better call waterproof technician, or if you want to get rid problem yourself I will recommend in a spring time dig until you wouldn't get weeping tile (I was not sure ewhen you said, you dug already, how deep you went down?) Check weeping tile. 90% - problem there.
And tell me one more thing - is it corner, is it window close or you had downspoute somewhere around?

[Str8stack71]

Anta plumber.. thanks for your input. Yes, we had the front dug up about 6 months ago when we were regrading front of house... we thought we had better get it checked out while it was be dug and regraded... everything seemed to check out fine... come to find out, this house didn't even have bandboard on front... had to fix that also. No it is not a corner that is leaking... its only about a 4 or 5 foot section of the front wall that has mold on the block in the basement... it never really leaks, per say... its just moldy in that one section. Mold is on bottom block only... rest of basement walls are dry... all down spouts have been put down and drains away from house. Summer time is bone dry in basement... mold only shows up in winter after hard rain or heavy snow is melting...
Thanks for everyone's advice... ill check back in a bit.

[21boat]

Hi Str8stack71 I'm a G.C contractor and mason first trade. First off that wet section may have never been tar pitched outside properly on the get go. When the masons parged the outside walls and if it wasn't real smooth, had a tiny trowel lip left, then when the tar spray truck came along and sprayed it that lower lip of the dripping tar never got under it and its exposed with no sealer and sucks the water in.
The other situation is when a basement is dug out many times the footer is poured with the dirt wall being the outside form. This area has a tendency to get a little upward slope on the footer past the block wall sitting on the footer. When the masons parge the new wall they forget to put a dovetail/concave radius in the parge on the first course meeting the footer and leave a little trough so to speak and there is where water can sit and suck through the wall. The next thing that goes wrong on a brick veneer is the first brick bed joint is not struck and a pin hole(s) can allow water into the block cores. Of that's the basics. Lets go to a check list and try to widdle it down.
What material is the façade of the house?
Next check, does the top of the block wall have a 4" solid cap cement block where the floor joist sill plate sit?
Is the wall real wet now and if it is can you drill a hole at the bottom mortar joint of the first block course that sits on the footer. I realize that its more than likely 4" below finish floor and might be hard to get the angel but get as close to the footer as possible. If some water comes out this will determine if those block cores have water sitting in them and is trapped to get to the trench. I know you just want to find a paint to cover this problem up but you really won't Any brick/block/stone/ect material has believe it or not Salt in it. When these masonry materials gets to wet for a long time the salt tries to leave it and when it hits the air the salt will effervesce ( white powder) or that combined with mold. The salt that's trying to get out will beat that krap out of any paint or drylock in time. Is a pool we use through-seal to seal the shot concrete on a pool. Lets try to solve the problem first and that will fix the paint problem. On a side note most people even in the trades won't believe me when I tell them concrete block can rot like wood. I've ripped down driveway retaining walls and the bottom courses of the inside core webs was soft enough to take a your hand a crush it. This is why it would be good to drill holes and see if there is trapped water in the cores. I noticed you said the first floor didn't have a band on the outside of the floor joist is this what you were referring to? The reason why I ask I now doubt there is a 4' solid cap block under sill plate. Did you see open block cores where the 2x8 or 2x6 wood sill plate sat on basement wall. If you did see open cores. Check above the wet spot outside and see if there are any windows near or above that area. If there is check the windows for any possible way a small amount of water could get through on heavy rains and leak down behind the siding and into a open block core under the sill plate. I've seen this before happen. Sorry I stated so much here but I'm trying to chase the possible sources down so look at the areas and don't be afraid to run water on that façade are out side and around any windows and see if you get a reaction in the 1/2 inch holes you drilled and see if it's a quick reaction and is it is its this means there is a problem there and fairly quick means it more direct and the ground 8 feet down takes a lot longer for water to reach that depth. So do some test and get back please

Signed 21 Boat

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[AnTa_Plumber]

21boat!
May I ask you a question. I don't see in your description MEMBRANE (black or brown plastic with air gaps). Even if tar was put not properly membrane will block that water to come close to the foundation. And water will drill to weeping tile by those air gaps.
Maybe over there it's different technic used, but as usually :
-hydrolic cement or parging (depenced how bad conditions)
- tar or blue sealent
- membrane
-weeping tile graded to lower level and then to sump pump inside the house.

After all no one drop of water can't get in.
My question is why you don't mentioned membrane. You do some different protection?
Any suggestions are very helpful. I like to find new ideas, more powerful.

[Str8stack71]

All suggestions are greatly appreciated and taken into consideration... insight is always a great thing,.

[21boat]

Str8stack71 maybe I shouldn't mention this here but here the real truth on poly membrane on an outside foundation. It FAILS in years to come guarantee, I use to use it back in the late 70s on our job sites. In the 80s to help make heavy equipment payments I got into fixing basements that leaked fairly heavily. It was a logical step being I was also a mason and builder that actually physically built the basements. The first surprising thing I found was when I dug out someone else's basement that used a poly membrane on the out side of the pitched wall, that over time it became dried and cracked. It was fine about 5' up from the bottom of the foundation, but the last 3 most important feet which were the surface ground water its heaviest, the poly was cracked and brittle. Since that happened it help TRAP water against the foundation since it could get behind the poly. You literally couldn't touch it with out it falling apart. It was Bingo time for me. The simple science kicked in. Through time the first couple of feet was exposed to big seasonal tempters changes of hot and cold. So just like our roads it cracks and got brittle. The membrane actually trapped water in against the foundation. Thus causing that trapped water not to wick away in the dirt during the dryer season and keep that area wet forever so to speak and a little rain had a big head start to get the walls wet and this would exacerbate the problem
In the 80s Armstrong World Industries was developing a panel plastic base material that was smooth on one side and the other side look like the Velcro loops, a wirey effect about an inch out from the panel. This loop side was laid against the foundation as you backfilled and it was so expensive to use the homeowner could,t afford it or couldn't justified it. So we had the block/parging/ pitch and no poly anymore. Even it the poly was good it was placed to the top of the footer and not wrapped down and around it.
Because of economics when a full basement is dug the footers are usually poured against the outside dirt wall as the other form. And the drain tile was laid on top of the footer and not beside. Again wrong location for the tile it HAS to be beside the footer. Lets get into that spot for a min. The crucial spot for ALL water penetration is right where the block meets the footer. If the masons did NOT make a sloped/angeled parge to that outside footer water still lays on top of the footer drain tile or not. Again we have a sliver spot that is constantly exposed to water and the first block joint will suck it in and the a capillary action kicks in and the first block course over time say wet and mold later. Lets address the outside drain tile. It will ALWAYS fail when its capacity is reached. If there is not a mechanical means or gravity means of draining that fully loaded system water in basement again. The best waterproofing material I saw only once in my life of all the years in the trades was a basement we dug out that had leaks. As we dug it out, I saw no pitch on the walls. What blew me away was the Whole outside basement wall was parged with actual CLAY. It was very similar to modeling clay and was still oily. The house was built in the early 50s. It repelled water like you believe still 30 years later. The perfect way to waterproof a basement (which is when I could give a lifetime warranty) is when we added an outside drain tile against the footer and was able to connect to that and trenched ditch away from the house and eventually far away from the house was able to run the pipe ground like a downspout pipe away from the house. The tile can never fill up ever as long as that out of ground pipe is clear and open. The perfect back fill is when we would use 2b clean stone as backfill against the basement wall and bring that with in 2 feet of the top on the finish grade and a fabric on that and topsoil. The water hits that stone area and drops like a rock right to the drain tile. It does blow me away how the tech keeps coming out to SEAL the basement on the INSIDE wall and not the outside. Cement block are NOT made to withstand constant moisture in it. It does weaken it in time guarantee. The other thing that blows me away is a home owner will Dry lock the wall and then nail furring strips in the wall to frame it up and thus POKED holes in the dry lock membrane, not to mention eventually the nails will rust away and the flat 2bs or furring strips will fail.
So this is why I don't use a plastic/poly membrane. I'm not sure of your Geo local but poly is poly ans when that fails the gaps will trap water and actually help create a suction between the block parged wall and the inside of that poly against. So oops in science.
The words hydrostatic pressure is so way over used and it sounds cool but its basically water trying to seek its own level. Its never really mentioned when it comes to in ground pools but that's the biggest pressure you van have in weight and gravity. It is a true action but does any lay person know how and what it is. The word was so over used in the sales of inside basement sealers. The irony of it if there was heavy hydrostatic pressure the paint wold be blown off the basement wall under long forced pressure. What ever happened to its getting wet because its exposed to the water.
This blue stuff? Is this product an application put on a block wall before it is parged? If it is do you know if its called "Bull Bond" which can act like a membrane and its junk and the parging on it fails also in time Here is a site where the make it and now it seems to be used in the upper U.S. states because of the Mexican and Puerto Ricans / crib British Islands. I work construction in P.R. in the winter for 20 + years and this is what they use and doesn't understand its application.
Bull-Bond
Bull Bond Manufacturing Corp - Caguas, Puerto Rico (PR) | Company Profile
Hear is a pruduct that's new to me and maybe it will work and if it does let me know
YouTube - How Penetron Works

Signed 21 Boat

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[Str8stack71]

Boat 21... thanks so much for your info. I live in north east Maryland if that gives you any idea of the weather in this area... after we put the band board on the front of the house, we dug up the front foundation wall and found no cracks... now we have had a large deck put on the house in that area... at this point, digging it back up would be difficult to do... I appreciate all that you are offering for info and I am not to proud to say that I am learning from it also... thanks again, I am open to all you have to say

[21boat]

Maybe try the Pentron ans see what that does
I live in south Pa. and Geo wise I'm relatively close in climate that you get.

Signed 21 Boat

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[AnTa_Plumber]

Hi 21boat!

U.S.E Hickson Products - Blue Seal Waterproofing
Something like that you mean. It's good after parging, before membrane.

I saw your opinion about that membrane. How about that product. In our market it's for few years. And seems that it works really good. Become as a rubber, which gives chance to be deform but not be ripped as membrane. But you have to wait till it dryes, only after that you can put membrane as 3rd layer.

[21boat]

I have just recently used a very similar product on my concrete roof in Puerto Rico. Its white It has a clear primer applied one roller one coat. The is is two coats of the white reflective sealer. Its almost like a silicone application. The next day or so you can peel the dried left over right out of the bucket and it rubber like. The bucket is 100% clean when you peel it. Its also a fairly new product In P.R. Its not cheap either. I'm curious to see haw well it last. The concrete roof doesn't leak but the sealer helps keep the moisture from penetrating in the roof and rusting the rebar in it.
That Hicksons Sealer is not hear yet I will keep on the look out for it. Thanks! For sharing some New Info with me!
What is your 3rd membrain ? Poly?

[newzev]

Have you tried crystalline cementatious waterproofing sealer from inside.

If not read about Aquafin, Zypex or Kryton.

There are are many choices. The best being Kryton T1 and Kryton T2.

What is different about the crystalline sealers is that they go deep into the walls.

Maybe the outside waterproofers are right. But maybe you should try this stuff first.

Ken

[21boat]

Hi newzev. Welcome to the site!!

Hope you enjoy posting and helping all here..

On a side note you posted on a "thread" answer to the question that dates back to Jan 09. I did the same thing when I started here so just giving you heads up. Look in the upper left of post to check dates..

Again Welcome...