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arcura · Jan 10, 2009, 10:53 PM

In Today's gospel lesson we read
(from the NJB) Mark 1: 4. John the Baptist was in the desert, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
5. All Judaea and all the people of Jerusalem made their way to him, and as they were baptized by him in the river Jordan they confessed their sins.
6. John wore a garment of camel-skin, and he lived on locusts and wild honey.
7. In the course of his preaching he said, "After me is coming someone who is more powerful than me, and I am not fit to kneel down and undo the strap of his sandals.
8. I have baptised you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
9. It was at this time that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John.
10. And at once, as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit, like a dove, descending on him.
11. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, the Beloved; my favour rests on you."
Do you believe that literally all of Judea and all of Jerusalem cam to John for baptism and confessed their sins or do you believe that the statement is hyperbole meaning many people?:confused:
How many other places in the bible do you see this type of expressionism such as the sun goes around the earth?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

sndbay · Jan 11, 2009, 07:52 AM

The scripture actually is stated as all land.. So John went unto, meaning in the mist of all, all parts country or territory for the inhabitants. (of a whole)

Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 3:5-6 is witness to Mark 1:5

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

So it is more that I am sure that the people who came from all the regions were baptisted.

arcura · Jan 11, 2009, 01:19 PM

sndbay
I agree that us what the writer meant, but some folks claim to take the words of the bible literally.
That is the question I was asking.
Do you take the bible literally?
A yes or no answer is all that is needed.
However, comments such as yours are more than just welcome.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay · Jan 11, 2009, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay
I agree that us what the writer meant, but some folks claim to take the words of the bible literally.
That is the question I was asking.
Do you take the bible literally?
A yes or no answer is all that is needed.
However, comments such as yours are more than just welcome.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well thank you Fred... Yet some people take that scripture to mean all people of those areas or regions were baptized. That just is not the way it reads. And of course we know the Jews did not come to be baptize, nor do they today.

I can believe all that the bible says... One just has to understand the language in which it was intended, and how the words address to the subject.

Plus sometimes I see that scripture changes in the newer versions then what the King James version stand firm with from the original text. I just have to use the number system to which the original text are locked by.

Have a good day

arcura · Jan 11, 2009, 07:36 PM

sndbay,
Then you believe the earth stands still and the sun goes around the earth as the bible indicates.
Is that right?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Athos · Jan 11, 2009, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by sndbay

Plus sometimes I see that scripture changes in the newer versions then what the King James version stand firm with from the original text.

I'm not sure what you meant by this. Do you mean the KJ Version is the definitive Biblical text?

Athos · Jan 11, 2009, 11:56 PM

To answer the question - yes, I believe the Bible is filled with figures of speech including hyperbole.

As to this specific verse, I think it is hyperbole. Certainly the writer could not have literally meant ALL. Interpreting it as "land" may be true, but even then it still seems to be hyperbole.

arcura · Jan 12, 2009, 12:42 AM

Athos,
Agreed!
That is part of the reason some folks find the Bible difficult to understand in some areas.
One must remember that the authors of the various books in the bible wrote from their perspective of the world around THEM and in regard to their culture at the time in history they wrote.
An example is the great flood and Noah.
The bible speaks of the flood being a world flood and all people on the world but those in Noah's Aark were killed.
If so how did it happen that others in other parts of this planet recorded the great flood including people in North and South America?
I believe that the author of the story about Noah was writing about the world around him. Folks back in those days did not know of other continents thousands of miles away.
And in those days it appeared that the sun did go around the earth because they saw it rise in the east ans set in the west.
It looked like the earth stood still while the sun moved.
There was no way that they could know that the earth orbited the sun.
It was many hundreds of years later that the truth of that become known.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

sndbay · Jan 12, 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
Then you believe the earth stands still and the sun goes around the earth as the bible indicates.
Is that right?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred:
I believe the earth was created perfect.. But I would like to read the scripture you have mentioned ? It would be an interesting study. Plus..There are many reflection of things that were important back years ago that today we are ignorant to the comprehension, and yet they remain of the same importance today if we knew the facts. Scripture indicates this to the world and heavenly ages, and our lack to willing acknowledge. (2 Peter 3:5)
And how we don't go beyond the principles of doctrine in Christ. We should be willing to go further in perfection with the Holy Spirit. If God permits we are open to so much more in His will and in service to Him. (Hebrews 6 )

sndbay · Jan 12, 2009, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Athos

I'm not sure what you meant by this. Do you mean the KJ Version is the definitive Biblical text?

The Kings James Version is safely kept by what is known as the Massorah.. One can look this up on the internet.. The Text itself had been fixed before the Massorites were put in charge of it. This had been the work of the Sopherim. Their work, under Ezra and Nehemiah, was to set the Text in order after the return from Babylon; and we read of it in Neh. 8:8 (*1) (cp. Ezra 7:6, 11). The men of "the Great Synagogue" completed the work. This work lasted about 110 years, from Nehemiah to Simon the first, 410 - 300 B.C.

The Sopherim were the authorized revisers of the Sacred Text; and, their work being completed, the Massorites were the authorized custodians of it. Their work was to preserve it. The Massorah is called "A Fence to the Scriptures," because it locked all words and letters in their places. It does not contain notes or comments as such, but facts and phenomena. It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, &c. All this, not from a perverted ingenuity, but for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss of misplacement of a single letter or word.

The Massorah. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

arcura · Jan 12, 2009, 12:14 PM

sndbay,
One of the laces in the bible that indicates that is 1 Chron 16: 30. Tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is firm, it cannot be moved.
Also how about there the Bible says that the whole world asked Solomon for advice.
How do you suppose the people in the American continents did that?
Because of those sorts of statements I do not read the bible ultra literally as some folks do.
Rather I try to understand why it was said that way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay · Jan 12, 2009, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
one of the laces in the bible that indicates that is 1 Chron 16: 30. tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is firm, it cannot be moved.
Also how about there the Bible says that the whole world asked Solomon for advice.
How do you suppose the people in the American continents did that?
Because of those sorts of statements I do not read the bible ultra literally as some folks do.
Rather I try to understand why it was said that way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred.. In the verse 30, the world also shall stand stable, we reference this in the language of hebrew to find it means the world stands established... 1 Chronicles 16:23-33 are the same as Psalms 96.. hope that helps..

Please note the scripture where the whole world asked Solomon ?

jakester · Jan 12, 2009, 02:47 PM

arcura - OK, here are a couple of thoughts I have regarding this passage.

1) When the text says all Judea and Jerusalem, I don't think it meant every single person. It was most-likely only Jews, not gentiles, nor God-fearers (gentile proselytes). The Jews out of respect for their national heritage and the Torah, would have participated in this event because John was being recognized as a prophet. To not be present might have brought personal ostracization to an individual and perhaps even the scorn of the religious leaders (Pharisees)—which by this time was more the concern of many than anything else.

2) There is no reason, I'd argue, to suspect that the gospel writers (in your reference, Mark) intended to mean every single person alive in these areas— because presumably, as I argued above, many Romans and gentiles lived in Jerusalem and Judea. The writer is assuming the Jewish identity and therefore to say "all" would tacitly mean "all Jews." The baptism event was a Jewish event, and only Jews would have understood the weight of it. A gentile might have looked at the event and shaken his head, saying "there go those crazy Jews again." I'm merely speculating to make a point of why a gentile would not have been present.

arcura · Jan 12, 2009, 03:18 PM

jakester
I agree, but the point is that there are many who claim to read the bible absolute literally.
There are many paces in the bible where that attitude is ridiculous including those passages which say the earth stands still (does not move) and therefore dose not orbit the sun.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Athos · Jan 12, 2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by jakester

1) When the text says all Judea and Jerusalem, I don't think it meant every single person.

2) There is no reason, I'd argue, to suspect that the gospel writers (in your reference, Mark) intended to mean every single person alive in these areas.

Of course not, hence, hyperbole. That is the very point Arcura is making.

arcura · Jan 12, 2009, 05:27 PM

Athos
Yes it is.
Fred

Akoue · Jan 12, 2009, 05:31 PM

It's also interesting to note that the Bible doesn't read itself literally. Think of all the places in the NT where the Prophets need to be explained *allegorically*.

De Maria · Jan 12, 2009, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by sndbay

The Kings James Version is safely kept by what is known as the Massorah.. One can look this up on the internet.. The Text itself had been fixed before the Massorites were put in charge of it. This had been the work of the Sopherim. Their work, under Ezra and Nehemiah, was to set the Text in order after the return from Babylon; and we read of it in Neh. 8:8 (*1) (cp. Ezra 7:6, 11). The men of "the Great Synagogue" completed the work. This work lasted about 110 years, from Nehemiah to Simon the first, 410 - 300 B.C.

The Sopherim were the authorized revisers of the Sacred Text; and, their work being completed, the Massorites were the authorized custodians of it. Their work was to preserve it. The Massorah is called "A Fence to the Scriptures," because it locked all words and letters in their places. It does not contain notes or comments as such, but facts and phenomena. It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, &c. All this, not from a perverted ingenuity, but for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss of misplacement of a single letter or word.

The Massorah. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

What about the NT? Who was supposed to preserve it?

jakester · Jan 12, 2009, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

jakester
I agree, but the point is that there are many who claim to read the bible absolute literally.
There are many paces in the bible where that attitude is ridiculous including those passages which say the earth stands still (does not move) and therefore dose not orbit the sun.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Sorry, my tone may have suggested that I felt you were defending an abosolute literal rendering of the bible at every junction... I was actually siding with you in that the bible is not to be taken absolutely literally in every passage. For example, when Jesus says "if your right eye offends you, pluck it out; for it better to enter into heaven with one eye than into hellfire with both." I have heard stories of Middle Age believers cutting their eyes out as an act of piety... that's insanity; definitely. So, I agree with you, arcura... sorry I did not make that clearer.

However, I would add one thing. People sometimes fail to account for the parts which are to be taken literally and in those instances, argue for non-literal interpretation. Arcura, what are your thoughts on that? For instance, when Jesus walks on water, some try to argue the text is really saying that it was the writer's impression that he walked on the water but had experienced an optical illusion but chose to document it anyway (i.e. in the desert, the heatwaves can create an optical illusion to look like someone is walking through or on water). It's outlandish but there are people who would try to argue that. What do you think about judging between literal and non-literal interpretations?

arcura · Jan 12, 2009, 07:16 PM

Jakester,
I believe that the recording of Jesus miracles is relatively true.
However I also believe that in some cases where number are used that they mean differntly such as 1000 means a lot, 5000 means much more than just a lot.
That is such as in the feeding of 5000 men. That's not counting women and children which could number over 15,000 people on a hill top.
Your point about Jesus walking on water is well made.
The rest of that story is that Peter also walked on water out to Jesus but began to sink when he became frightened and his faith shaken.
The rest of the story says the walking on water was indeed taking place.
The literalists who bother me are those who do not want to believ what the bible does literally say such as that Jesus was talking directly to and about Peter when Jesus called Simon "Peter" the rock on which ke would build His Church.
And another example is when Jesus said this IS my body, and this IS my blood.
He was not talking symbolically as other passage in the bible indicate, but there are those literalists who try to claim he meant something else.
Peace and kindness,
Fred