[bryantfurnacer]

I just developed a slow drip from the ceiling below my 2nd fl. Master bath.
The wet spot on the ceiling seems to be right below one of the sinks, but could also be in the path of the drain pipe from the shower or even the toilet.

I can't determine any source of leaking from the second floor.

I do have one of those enclosed fiberglass shower enclosures where the floor does have a little give, so I considered that it could be a drain seal leak, but the drip is constant, about one drop every 15 seconds and does not increase when someone is taking a shower. Nor does it decrease after several hours of non use. It has been a steady drip every 15 seconds for about 2 days now. There is a growing wet spot on the ceiling about 1 foot in diameter and the drips are coming from a recessed light fixture near the wet spot.

I examined theshower drain, and saw no obvious signs of leakage. Seems to be as PVC drain with some kind of hard putty around the edge which is a little eroded in one spot.

I know I will likely have to cut a hole in the ceiling, but looking for any thoughts on what it is likely to be.


Another thing I would mention is that this drip seemed to start right after I gave the shower a good cleaning. Could just be a coincidence. I was worried that all my standing and kneeling in the shower as I scrubbed could have disturbed the seal or something.

[21boat]

Safety shut down the branch circuit that's in the recess Leigh box and the room Carefully cut hole in ceiling its shot. Follow the water trail and there is the pipe that's not happy. Check shower trap that holds water If it just was the shower drain seal in base it would only leak from a shower not a constant leak. However the shower water trap can continue to drip. The only thing left toilet seal if bad and toilet flapper refills toilet on its own. Also check sink traps

signed 21 boat

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[bryantfurnacer]

Hi 21boat,
Thanks for the advice. The sink traps seem fine, not wet at all and no water in the cabinets under the (two) sinks in the master bath. I can look down the shower trap and see that it has water in it. At the rate of this drip, I'd think I'd see the water level in the trap diminish after several hours. The water dripping out of the ceiling seems clean.
If the toilet seal were bad, would the floor around the toilet be wet? Also, the toilet would run to refill the water I think?

I guess there is no hope for it. After 2 days of constant leaking, I guess I have to cut a hole in the ceiling. Thanks for the advice to turn off the circuit breaker. Will do.

[21boat]

You know this will drive you nuts if you don't find the treasure and make the cut. If the water seems clean ( ceiling filters) It may very well be the waterline. If it was cold out side and the bath is in a cold area a pipe could have frozen and thawed and split a pipe. Either or go for the rainbow.

Singed 21 boat

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[BuddyMan]

Hi, it's Bryantfurnacer. I had to sign up with a new name because I forgot my password for the other name.

I cut a hole in the ceiling, and it is indeed a copper water pipe that is leaking. I just don't understand it, these pipes are nowhere near an outside wall. I can't figure out why it is leaking, but it is.

I suppose there is no homeowner fix for this, and I have to call a plumber. Last time I had to call a plumber for a frozen pipe, it cost over $300. Is there any way to keep the cost down?

[21boat]

Yes do it yourself and don't burn the house down to sweat pipe. There are couplings to sweat over copper pipe and change to CPVC if code allows but to be honest I would stick to copper and look for suspected pipe connections and maybe address them also to make sure it's a good job and close up for good call homeowners and see what they say

Signed 21 boat

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[bryantfurnacer]

Hi,
I have a plumber on the way. I have the pipe pretty well exposed and a ladder and tarp all set up, hoping to get him in and out in an hour, which willl cost me just under $200.
I thought about gearing up to sweat the pipe myself, watched some Youtube videos on the technique.
But it is just too close quarters for me. Right under the ceiling. All that blowtorch flame, I don't know how plumbers keep from burning the house down.
So I'm going to bite the bullet and call in the expert. At least it's not New Year's Day, when it would cost me 2x as much.
But I can't figure out why the heck this pipe sprang a leak. Small pipe, maybe 1/2 inch, coming off the 1" pipe, heading towards one of the sinks or the tub or something. We have 5 fixtures up there, shower, tub, toilet and 2 sinks. If I'm correct, this could be the pipe that runs to the tub, which we almost never use. All these pipes run through the living room ceiling, nowhere near outside wall. The leak is a pinhole, just a fine mist comes out of it.
Is this a flaw in the pipe, or something else? Can I prevent this from happening again?

[21boat]

Good move. An intelligent man knows his limitations and that makes him smarter! I laughed about not knowing how the plumbers don't burn the house down SOME did! Ha ha . We have a lot of tricks for that fireproof cloths bendable metal heat shields etc. The part I hate is being in a tight crawl space and the hot solder sometimes hits the hand or gets in a shoe. Is the pinhole on a solder joint? If you have 1/2" copper L the only time I have seen it it leak away from a fitting is if a nail was shot into it or it was kinked or froze and split.
Good Luck bryantfurnacer and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Signed 21 boat

Signed

[bryantfurnacer]

Hi 21boat,
Plumber just left. $285. He came and diagnosed the problem immediately. He says the pipe must have froze, hairline split, it was a bit eroded on the inside, so must have been a weak spot. I still don't understand how that pipe could freeze.
I had the pipe exposed and ready, all he had to do was move a bit more of the insulation. As soon as he found it, he said he had to go for a couple of minutes to get some supplies he didn't have. He was gone just under 30minutes, and he charged me for every minute of it. That really smoked me. I told the gal over the phone I had a copper water pipe with a leak. She didn't ask me the size, or I could have told her 1/2 inch. It was not in a joint, in a about 6" length between joints.
Where the heck did he go, and is that reasonable that I should pay for that time? At $37 for each 15 minutes, that trip cost me $74. I should add that we have a hardware store 1/2 mile away, 15 minutes round trip at most if you walk in knowing what you need. After paying $59 for the visit, plus $37 for each 15 minutes, I think it is only fair to expect them to come with the equipment they need to do a routine job, especially when I told them the exact problem on the initial call. I have half a mind to call their office and complain.
But at least it is fixed and I don't have to worry about a flooded first floor!

[21boat]

I was going to mention freeze on the get go and I hear a lot "my pipes are not in the outside wall" Well on my three things on L copper you had the freeze. Maybe that needs talked about I'm a pretty good authority on that. Check out my history. I can see why you are miffed. I have this old walk in ice cream truck 12 foot box full garage door in rear we use this truck on the job sites and for service calls. I do all phases of construction from the dirt up and all in house. I have a rolling hardware store and my customers laugh at my 1971 job truck until I open the door. Just for copper fittings iron pipe fittings there's a really big tool box almost to heavy to pick up and sections and sizes of pipe. What was he missing a slip coupling to slide over the pipe after cut to slip over last cut to solder? Enough abut me lets explore the freeze factor to prevent that from happening again and give good detailed description. Just because the pipe was fixed now what for insul not to happen again I try to give full service ha ha

Signed 21 boat

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[bryantfurnacer]

Hi,
Yeah, I think he might have needed the slip coupling. He either went back to his shop for it rather than buy at the hardware store 4 blocks away, or he took a break on my dime. He came, he saw, he fixed. So I'm happy.
I keep thinking I still hear a drip though, so I can't relax. Keeping an eye on it.

I have 2 freezing problems in my house. I have some pipes that go to another bathroom that pass through the garage ceiling. These pipes free nearly every year. If I could find a way to take care of that, I'd be happy. Last year I wrapped both the hot and cold water pipes in insulated tape (not electric tape, instructions said not to use that inside walls) this was foam tape with aluminum foil on one side. Then stuffed the whole cavity with fiberglas bats. Didn't give it with drywall, covered it with cardboard, because I've had to tear the damn thing out somany times. The whole mess got wet during the summer when my kid let the toilet overflow for an hour one day. I read lately that getting insulation wet decreases its insulating abilities, so maybe that did it, but the damn pipes froze over Christmas. Again. I am thinking of draping plastic curtains around that part of the garage and putting a space heater in there. Can't afford to heat the whole garage, but maybe I cankeep that area at 35. I am looking for any suggestions on how to make those pipes freeze proof. Have had plumbers out to fix cracks in those pipes maybe 6 times in 10 years.
In the living room ceiling, that is another set of pipes. They have never froze in the 15 years we have3 owned this house. They run through the center of the room, at least 8 feet from any outside wall. The only thing I can think of is a woodpecker this fall pecked a 1" diameter hold in the siding about 10 feet away from these pipes. that may have created a draft to this part of the ceiling.
Also, I haven't used the tub this pipe runs to for over a year. Maybe I need to run that tub every day in the winter. I'm not too worried about this set of pipes. I"ll leave the drywall hole open until spring, then patch the ceiling and the woodpecker hole, puts lots of insulation around the pipes. Is there anything else that will help?

Damn, I keep hearing a drip. Going to go investigate.

[21boat]

I laughed at the post (cause and effect) yes if insul gets wet at 5% 95% lost its properties not to mention mold. Lets attack the garage problem! The pipes over the garage do they go through the upper floor joist or is there a soffit built in the garage to carry waterlines and probably drainage? The heat in your house is it forced air/electric/ or hot water baseboard or radiators? There is a couple of changes to make here and the info would be good. Also the pipes coming into the garage do they have a vertical chase way or are they comning out id the adjacent 2nd floor outer joist from inside house?

Post back and I can get some remedies here.

Signed 21 boat

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[bryantfurnacer]

The garage waterpipes go through the garage upper floor joist. They originate in the adjacent 2nd floor joist from inside the house and exit the house into the garage at the bottom of the joist for about a 4 ft span westward, then angle upward and make a right turn to head north along the top of the joist, right under the floorboard for the second floor. That span is about 10 feet.
The freezing has always happened in that four feet span where the pipes are just over the garage ceiling wallboard. Only the thickness of the 2x4 plus about 1 inch, away from the garage ceiling wallboard, so not a lot of room to put insulation in.
We have forced air heat, though no vents in the garage. I don't believe any ductwork runs along any of the garage walls either.

[21boat]

Okay, here's the main objectives Is there ceiling room in the garage to install a small box ceiling soffit. It should have been there to begin with
1st objective is build soffit in garage to create distance from pipe for more room to insulate.
2. Next is to actually have soffit deep enough, down from ceiling to mimic the floor joist above it.
Then we can remove the existing floor joist insul cut out that portion of existing garage ceiling drywall and drop the insul into the soffit below the pipes. Same insul qualities now but a "false floor" (soffit) to insul.

This now creates more insul below pipes. Soffit is thick enough to get R value and insul form existing 2 floor joist Now pipes are exposed to warmth (exposed non insul joist) and the insul below that is correct R value.
So how much room do we have below the pipes to work with so our heads don't hit. The soffit nly has to with and depth for 6 or 9 inches to insul.

[bryantfurnacer]

There is plenty of room to put in a 6 to 9 inch soffit, both depth and width. Is that all that would be needed--9 inches deep measuring down from the pipes and 9 inches wider than the pipes? I could do that.
Frame it out with 2x4s load up with insulation, then drywall it all in? Is that the general idea? I don't have any building experience, but that sounds doable. I'd have to find a way to nail it into the existing studs I guess.

[21boat]

This is real doable for you. You 9" of insul (R30) to be around all three side of the pipe . So figure out your out side with and length of soffit. Allow a couple of inches below pipe add 9 inches to bottom soffit. To start the soffit build a small wall looks like a ladder now and with a helping hand to help hold screw that to the bottom of the floor joist opening on ceiling that was cut out. If you need nailer's on joist to hang soffit cut wood to fit between joist flush to bottom of joist and that's the soffit plate places to nail. Insulate and drywall. Don't forget to cut out the old garage ceiling drywall and keep that open the new soffit below it will be the insulation fore the floor above and now pipes will stay warm.

[21boat]

This is real doable for you. You 9" of insul (R30) to be around all three side of the pipe . So figure out your out side with and length of soffit. Allow a couple of inches below pipe add 9 inches to bottom soffit. To start the soffit build a small wall looks like a ladder now and with a helping hand to help hold screw that to the bottom of the floor joist opening on ceiling that was cut out. If you need nailer's on joist to hang soffit cut wood to fit between joist flush to bottom of joist and that's the soffit plate places to nail. Insulate and drywall. Don't forget to cut out the old garage ceiling drywall and keep that open the new soffit below it will be the insulation fore the floor above and now pipes will stay warm.
Yes 2x4s build

[BuddyMan]

Thanks 21boat,
This is really helpful. I can construct most of this soffit on the ground and then hang it on the joist.
Just R30 batts are enough you think, or should I wrap the pipes too?
Happy new year to you. So far, no new drips, I think I was hearing the clock tick or something the other day. I've been all over the house and no wet spots at all.

[21boat]

Yes wrap the pipes I don't know what your Geo is there. Mine Lanc. Pa is R19 sidewalls and R30 ceiling. Your floor joist above I assume are 2x10 which today is 9 1/4 and that would only be enough room for R30 on the get go. On a side note If you get batts with a vapor barrier on it the vapor has to be facing the warm side of the soffit. In other words If I looked down through the top floor I should only see the vapor barrier. Vapor barriers ALWAYS go against the heated side no matter if it's a side wall or ceiling Check out my other post in history it will explain better. Buddyman. Your project is nice and cheap in materials to fix a plumbing problem. One service call from a plumber would cover your mat and enough mat money left over to get breakfast on the Wat to lumber store. Cool! Soffit done right Never a service call again. I know this was not your original question but a blessing in disguise. So thee real problem was not your drip but the insulation the "cause and effect"
Good luck and happy new year.

Signed 21 boat

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